posted December 01, 1999 10:06 PM         

I am just into PlanB for almost 7 weeks now. Prior to that - for 7 months I was the pathetic, clingy, crying, begging woman all the books tell you NOT to be - smart books!!!! I was LB all over the place, too, with my self-righteous indignation and lots of demands and threats. Only thing I can say is that you CAN teach this 44 year old dog some new tricks

NSR, I know you will be able to shed some light here...

Roll Me Away

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"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."

posted December 01, 1999 11:48 PM         

I didn't read that book, however I spent about an hour in Barnes$Noble checking it out. I didn't buy it because I thought it was too complicated. Dr.H's ideas are very SIMPLE. I think thats what makes them work.No they are not easy. It's hard as hell not to LB. When I don't I get results When I do I get more pain.
In fact the night I looked at Dr.D's book was the same night I bought SAA. Don't get me wrong Dr.D is a good councelor, however his specialty isn't infidelity. One of the best books I have found on marriage and family is Love Is A Decision by Gary Smalley, it doesn't clash with Dr.H's principles.

Take Care,

posted December 02, 1999 12:13 AM         

Let me tell you another excellent Christian marriage book that should be read by all people BEFORE they marry, but wouldn't hurt at any stage:

Passages of Marriage, by Minirth, Newman, and Hemfelt (three couples). Like Gail Shehey's "Passages" for women in menopause and midlife, this book speaks of the different stages of marriage throughout lifetime and what they mean. Did you know, for example that you need to complete a passage to go on to the next? If your marraige is stuck in the first passage "young love" and never gets to the second passage "realistic love", then an affair is more likely to happen because you expect the pie-in-the-sky emotions to remain, and when they don't, you go elsewhere to find it. It's an interesting book... I say a "MUST READ" for couples, especially Christian couples.

posted December 02, 1999 12:18 AM         

Yes, I did read the book... back in April one day after discovery... in it's entirety... 2 times... with almost no sleep in between! I was loaned to me so I don't have it with me now... some of the details escape me... but... I'll try to comment.

Actually, I thought the general concepts (between Dr. H and Dr. D) were pretty close... but there were some differences.

First, I found the Dr. D book addressed nothing about children... that bothered me.

Second, I found that the Dr. D was a little more "preachy"... a little too "christian"... btw I am christian(Catholic in fact.) That ddn't bother me so much... but the "tough love" concept doesn't seem to jive with "turning the other cheek." It was a more "quit from your spouse - cold turkey-like".)

Third, there was little in the way of advising of Plan A behavior... or providing Emotional Needs... (I think even a short Plan A is needed)

Fourth, the emphasis is on a Plan B like approach... and relies almost completely on "guilt" taking over the wayward spouse. Without some "practical ways" to do the Plan A... I felt something was missing. I think that's where you got the idea of "I should have been smarter and tougher earlier."

All in all... I again find the two Dr.s not too far off... but Dr. H's concepts seems to have filled in more detail for me.

I do believe that God (Jesus) has a lot to do with what will happen... I firmly believe it! and in the power of prayer... but a little more "openness to acceptance of the wayward" (as Dr. H recommends) I think, is more Christ-like.

Still a good book though!

posted December 02, 1999 07:16 AM         

WilliamJ,

Save your money - I'll tell you in a nutshell what the books says. Dr. Dobson recommends that when you find out, you basically and in a loving way tell your spouse to choose and stick to that. So, you have to be prepared to walk away 100% at the earliest of times, if your S remains in the affair.

Like Dr. Harley, he says do NOT cry, plead, beg, or look weak. He says even though you feel this way, don't do it, because he feels affairs are a way the wayward S shows lack of respect for the betrayed. Looking and acting needy makes them respect you even less. Really getting on with your life MIGHT make them realize what they will lose and maybe want to come back.

Interestingly, he describes the S having the affair as feeling TRAPPED (especially true for men)in the marriage and wanting the FREEDOM to choose. All the above needy behaviors displayed make the betrayer feel MORE TRAPPED.

He recommends daily prayer from the day of discovery. I had been looking for the book you recommend as it is on NSR's book list. Thanks!

Sheryl,

I have not read your recommended book, either. I find value in so much that I read, but eachbook has a different slant. I have a counseling session today - I graduated to once every two weeks, now! I want to talk to my counselor about developing a concrete but flexible plan and timetable for addressing this limbo I am in with my absentee H. Thanks for the reply!

NSR,

I KNEW I could count on you to reply!!! Actually, I am a Catholic, too. My H is a Baptist, but never goes to church. He used to go with me to the Catholic Church pretty regularly and got lazy - no church going for several years now. Since the affair was discovered, I have only been a couple times myself. I have just these past months begun to really reconnect with God and it has improved my emotional wellbeing and my HAPPINESS LEVEL a million percent! In my heart of hearts, I KNOW I will not just survive, but continue to THRIVE and live an even more fulfilling life no matter what happens with my marriage. The drive for happiness is INTERNAL, and I have it - it is NOT dependent on some external person, although I still love my H and want our marriage to work.

OK, so you weren't that impressed with the book either. As I posted above, I get something valuable out of all the books I read. I think there is alot to the "respect" angle that Dr Dobson writes about, but he does miss the mark on the "meeting the needs" part of being a couple.

I dont have any little ones, so I never noticed that part not being in the book.

Did you read either book recommended by WilliamJ or new_beginning? I think the one by Smalley is on your list and I have actually been looking for it. I was thinking of ordering off the internet. Is it worth buying??

As always, THANKS so much for all that you do to help, NSR. You have become a true beacon and CHAMPION on the MBF!!!!

FHL,

I would have given anything to have my H walk away from the OW in the beginning. I never knew how I would act in a situation like this. I always said I would never tolerate my H cheating on me and would D him right away. Well, 9 - 10 months later - here I am being a good W at home and wanting to be a BETTER W and H is off in FL mostly these days. As I wrote to Sheryl, I need a plan with some timetables and have been thinking and praying on this. God is definitely putting resources in my life to do this and now it is up to me to use them. Please keep me in your prayers. Thanks for taking the time to post!

Roll Me Away

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"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."

posted December 02, 1999 07:34 AM         

Thanks for a good post...
I like it when an exchange of ideas like book reviews can be made...

I personally have not read "that" many...
On my to get for Christmas are

1. Private Lies : Infidelity and Betrayal of Intimacy by Frank Pittman
   
2. After the Affair : Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful by Janis Abrahms, Phd
   
3. Torn Asunder : Recovering from Extramarital Affairs by Dave Carder, Duncan Jaenicke, David A. Seamands
   

I didn't read "Passages of Marriage" or "Love Is A Decision" by Gary Smalley... but I have read other another book by Smalley... (the title escapes me now... but it was about relationships!... and I do like Smalley's style of writing!)

Prayers for you...

posted December 02, 1999 09:27 AM         

Besides the Plan B approach is the tough love approach that is advocated by Dr. Harley. It is the wake up call that Dr. Dobson is referring to in Love Must Be Tough.

Lastly when I read anyone's book about such things I try to find a reference in the Bible to correspond with what I read in some other book. The Bible is our manual covering how we operate, yet no one wants to see what God has to say about any of this. Turning the other cheek is good but it also says that we have to give our loved ones as well as our enemies a wake up call sometimes. God then takes over because we did what was necessary all in Christian love. We have to do what is in the other person's best interest as long as God gets all the glory, honor, and praise.

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God Bless,
Rob

posted December 02, 1999 09:53 AM         

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Lor
"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)

posted December 02, 1999 10:46 AM         

When I was encouraging him to spill, I made him feel safe and loved and listened to. Since he really was caught trying to walk away, maybe I instinctively knew the odds were in my favor and I knew I was operating in a position of strength rather than weakness.

After a couple days, I wrote him a letter outlining our options. I basically said we could D, limp or thrive. I would choose thrive, would not tolerate limp and if he could not commit to thrive, then he was free to leave. I outlined what D would physically mean (so it didn't look too appealing) but I just about held the door open for him those first few months.

I also told him that in the short term I would stand beside him as he put this woman behind him, but after that I would not share him emotionally or physically with another woman. I know I meant it.

Since I saved letters to him and other journal stuff on my computer, it's pretty interesting to see our progress in print.

You can tell after I came here and had SAA, I started talking about withdrawl, etc...

Personally I think timing is everything. If the affair is intense and has just caught on fire, you are less likely going to be successful with Dobson's Tough Love and pretty much have to wait it out if you want your marriage. If the affair is diminishing (like my H) the tough love, free to choose approach gives the betrayer an extra boot to get going out of fear of what he is going to lose, and the plan A stuff could actually delay closure if the betrayed is too understanding.

Sometimes nothing works. We all need to individualize our approach, I guess.

posted December 02, 1999 01:34 PM         

I read it soon after discovery and almost did what he suggested. Dobson does state to go directly to Plan B. In my case, I think that would have been a disaster based on how my wife felt about me at that time. I'm getting pretty close to Plan B, and I think it will have more of an impact having done Plan A.

posted December 02, 1999 02:59 PM         

I actually found myself using Plan A and Love Must Be Tough at the same time, during his affair, but before I knew for sure.

Let me explain. When I found myself becoming clingy, I struggled to back off. I wasn't very good at giving him space. The less available he was to me (travelling for business, not calling me back from work, 'working' overtime (translate boinking her), the more I called, pursued, etc. We were technically not separated, but he was out of town three days a week on business and working 7 am - 9PM when he was in town.

I found that when I

a) met his needs as best I could when he was home (Dr. Harley)

and b) communicated clearly that I wanted and deserved better treatment (Dr. Dobson)

and c) that he was free to stay or leave (both Drs.)

but he needed to 'decide to ride foot or horseback' (corny old New England saying) and let me know which as soon as possible, because I had a life to live.

So, it may seem schizophrenic, but I did use both books, to a certain degree, at the same time.

The main concept that I found them to have in common is you must respect your spouse's right to stay or go, and insist that you be treated with respect whatever their choice is.

The opening of the cage door illustration still helps me everyday. Whenever I sense that I am becoming clingy or my h. is feeling trapped, I lighten up and remind him that we choose to be married each day. It isn't a prison sentence. He used to feel that he was trapped by the choice made by a dumb 21 year old (him).

I highly recommend some books that have not been mentioned here yet. They are available at www.midlife.com. This is the Midlife Dimensions web site.

The following books by Jim and Sally Conway are great:

When a Mate Wants Out
Your Husband's Midlife Crisis
Moving on After He Moves Out (or she)
Men in Midlife Crisis

all are available on the site and most are paperback and easily affordable.

Blessings, Liz\POGP

posted December 02, 1999 05:28 PM         

You touched on so many things that I have done and I need to do (cage door thing).

Thanks,