posted March 15, 2000 10:30 AM            

But anyway, I've got a subject that I'd like to hear some good solid debate on, and that's namely the Emotional Need of Recreational Companionship. Now, I've read His Needs Her Needs and there was alot of stuff that bothered me in there, but the one chapter that bothered me the most was the one on Recreational Companionship.

In the book, it says that RC is usually one of the top needs for men. Harley goes on to say that, at the beginning of a relationship, many women will mold themselves so that they appear to like the same things that the man does. Then after they are married, the woman goes back to what they liked before and sometimes they try to change what the guy likes, and the guy gets frustrated because the woman doesn't like what he thought she did. Then whammo -- bad situation! Love Busting, hubby going off to do his own thing, wife doing the same, then possibly affairs happen, etc.

One of the things that Harley suggests is for the couple to find something in common that they both like and do that, forgetting what they used to like to do before. In fact, in the book, Harley gives his own marriage as an example. He used to be an avid chess player, but his wife didn't play chess at all. So he just up and quit playing chess so he could spend his recreational time with his wife. He basically recommends that a couple spend ALL their recreational time together.

Now while in theory I think this is great, in practice I find it lacking. In my case, and I'm sure in many other people's cases, my recreational interests cannot just be put aside so easily. They are basically a PART of me. I can no more put them aside then I can put aside my nose.

So what happens when you actually TRY to put aside things that are basically a part of you for the good of your marriage? Well, I would hazard a guess that a good deal of resentment would build up, regardless of the fact that you may be doing something fun with your spouse. The resentment may take a long time to build, and it may be unnoticable for a while, but it will eventually rear it's ugly head, don't you think?

So what's the solution, you ask? Well I don't know really. A couple who present false images to each other at the beginning of a relationship reaps what they sow, IMO. If you ask me, they should've been more honest about their interests and not try to mold themselves (be it man or woman) to what the other person likes. But that doesn't answer the problem of a marriage that is in trouble because of this issue. To that, I have no good answer, and I don't like Harley's answer.

What about you folks? Opinions? Agree? Disagree? Comments please!

(and btw, I'm not asking for advice on my personal situation, just trying to start a topic and get some discussion going on this subject, since it's bothered me for quite some time)

posted March 15, 2000 10:53 AM            

quote:

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So what happens when you actually TRY to put aside things that are basically a part of you for the good of your marriage? Well, I would hazard a guess that a good deal of resentment would build up, regardless of the fact that you may be doing something fun with your spouse. The resentment may take a long time to build, and it may be unnoticable for a while, but it will eventually rear it's ugly head, don't you think?

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I agree with you 100%! In fact this is one of the problems with my marriage. I LOVE dancing. My H doesn't like it but will occasionally (VERY occasionally) tolerate it. For nearly 7 years after we got married I didn't push to go out dancing because I knew he didn't like it. And when we did go, it was clear he'd rather not be there (he just sat there, only danced when I literally dragged him to the floor) and that ruined the fun time I could have had. did I resent him for it? You betcha! I have enjoyed dancing since before I could walk. It's a part of me. I've gone back to dancing, even if it means going without him. I can no longer deny that part of who I am. So far my husband hasn't had a problem with it, but it has opened the door for an EA. And now the gap between my husband and myself is wider.

Now we have a huge problem. If I stop dancing again, I will feel like I have 'set aside my nose' as you so eloquently put it. If he goes out with me, he will be faking it, and eventually it will slip back to "I'd rather stay home and watch TV."

If anyone has a solution for something like this, I'd be glad to hear it. We have gone through a POJA for what we think may be a workable solution but I have my doubts as to whether it will hold out in the long run.

Keep in mind that for me, dancing is an emotional need and it's very high on my list. For my H, it's close to being a LoveBuster (selfish demand - "dance with me or else"). Now, what?

posted March 15, 2000 10:56 AM            

I believe strongly that recreational companionship is an important need for BOTH sexes, but I think that me meeting my H's needs for RC probably saved my marriage.

When you court and date, you do recreational things. Then after a while of being married, you get lazy, other things take priority, and before you know it, you have no interests in common.

Unless it's something you absolutely find intolerable to do, I think it's a good idea to TRY to share at least SOME of your spouse's interests. My H likes to take long hikes in the woods early in the morning in summertime -- I mean EARLY. Like 6 AM on weekends. He used to go alone, and I stayed home and slept in. After the Dragon Lady thing, I started getting up early with him and going along. And you know what? It's not so bad. It's not too hot yet (and if it's humid you bring a towel to mop), it's very pretty, and the walk is good for me. We'd go out for breakfast afterwards, and you wouldn't believe what a difference it made to me.

Now, does he go out of his way for me on that front? No. Usually I go to the movies alone, because he rarely wants to see what I do, and he's not as good a sport as I am.

OTOH, he never complains if I go without him.

Now, some might say that I'm giving a lot more than I'm getting on that front. And if you want to keep a scorecard, yes I am. But the thing you can't score on is the change in his attitude towards me on general life. He's more considerate, more affectionate, even more grown-up. So the payoffs are far more than "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours."

I don't think a couple needs to be attached at the wrists and ankles. I think women who shlep their husbands SHOPPING are nuts. Men hate it, why put them through it? But I do think that SIGNIFICANT recreational time should be spent together. If one spouse doesn't like the hobby, then REASONABLE accommodation should be made so that the hobby can continue without interfering with the relationship.

posted March 15, 2000 11:09 AM            

Your scenario is typical of what happens when you just use one of the MB principles without balancing it with the whole philosophy.

Should you try to spend all your recreational time together---probably, unless you've got an awful lot of excess time on your hands. You should shoot for 15 hours/week of "together" time, including recreational.

BUT...

You do this in a way that utilizes the Rule of Complete Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. You should never (rarely ever) "sacrifice" and not gain from it. You don't want "win-lose" situations.

TS has got it---she and her husband are using the POJA to attempt a plan. That plan may not work, and that's OK; it's not chiseled in granite. You give something a try, and then evaluate the success and tweak it if the original plan needs help.

Harley has rather extensive "recreational compatibility" form at the end of a couple of his books. You and your spouse basically rate the items. Then you try to do things that you both rated highly. If there's nothing agreed on (which is unusual), then you try some things that were favorable with one spouse and neutral with the other.

And if there's something that you positively love, but you can't possibly do together, then the best thing is to meet that requirement of "15 hrs/week" with your spouse doing things you both enjoy, and pursue your solitary activities with the remaining time. Just like D&C and her husband are doing with the walks and day trips. It's not to the level that she'd like it to be (perhaps), but it does cement the relationship, and avoids the resentment that builds up when you "thoughtlessly" do your own thing.

posted March 15, 2000 11:10 AM            

What a wonderful answer. It seems to me that using the POJA is the way to go, but what D&C pointed out, deciding how to spend time with each other is not a game and scoring is not required.

TS, likes dancing. Her H has agreed to go sometimes. He might find he likes it. He might not like it anymore but will tolerate it. He likes other activities. Maybe she should join him on those sometimes. That does not mean a spouse cannot do their hobby alone sometimes.

I love to play golf. My wife doesn't. But when we were younger and before kids, she would sometimes go out with me and just walk the course while I played. We both enjoyed it. She learned something about golf. It gave her something to tease me about (putting and chipping occasionally go in the tank ). Even today she knows what I am talking about if I tell I had a good day or a bad day.

We also try to arrange to meet somewhere after I play to eat lunch or dinner or do something else if kids schedules allow.

Again, I think D&C really has it nailed down. It is not about equality, it is about balancing life a little better. It really doesn't even require giving up a hobby. Maybe finding something else that you both enjoy, just not as much a prime hobby. Do the one you both enjoy sometimes and the other hobbies more often.

My $0.02 which is really just agreeing with D&C.

posted March 15, 2000 11:17 AM            

You are bringing up a good topic for discussion. I also agree with much you are saying. I think the main thing to remember is when a couple is in recovery that they should spend if not all at least most of their recreational time together. I know that maybe I am not to thrilled with going fishing lets say, but maybe I can learn to enjoy it more. The fact that we are doing things together would reap great rewards for the future of our relationship together.

Maybe over time couples can start to have their "own time" as long as trust was built up between them. But one should look for the warning signs that would require one to rejoin in those activities once again with spouse. A person should not be totally consumed in certain recreational activities were as the marriage fails. Both sides need to take a look at what they enjoyed all along and what is possible for them to enjoy with their partner.

If someone just has to go rock climbling every free minute they have then this is no fair to the other spouse. Maybe the OS thinks that this would be dangerous or has real fears of height. The point I am trying to make is of course we all can't enjoy each others activities, but reasonable activities should at least be given a chance. One might be surprised that this activity is not so bad after all and it would bring them closer together. You need to approach the activity with an open mind. If it is negative then there is a stronger chance of failure to bond with spouse.

Now if a spouse wants to do an activity without the OS's presence then there is a problem. It's not good for any relationship to be totally consumed in one particular recreational activity.

One thing I would like to add to the above about something like rock climbing (only an example),maybe the spouse who does not want to participate can at least go along and stay on the sidelines.

If dazed and confused's H does not like dancing then maybe he can go along with her and be near her while she enjoys her activity. You never know, people change and maybe he'll hit the dance floor himself.

Thanks and I hope everyone trys to have some fun out there.

Pam

posted March 15, 2000 11:26 AM            

I'll try to get back to this tonight....

posted March 15, 2000 11:27 AM            

quote:

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If truthseeker's H does not like dancing then maybe he can go along with her and be near her while she enjoys her activity. You never know, people change and maybe he'll hit the dance floor himself.

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posted March 15, 2000 12:05 PM            

Speaking for myself, I don't like to dance because I feel like such a clumsy dolt out there. Maybe your H does too. Men are just not brought up with dancing (so unmanly!).

1. Does he (truly) understand how important this is to you?
2. Would he be willing to take dance lessons with you?

posted March 15, 2000 12:16 PM            

How you doing?

As far a recreational activities as a couple I think is very important. Tony loves to snowmobile. I have to hear about it all fall, winter, and spring. Even durring the summer but that is for surfing. I snowmobile and I am getting better. He is taking the time to teach me to ski and well I can not even buggy board but I do try. Even though I wipe out all the time.

Tony is adament that we do these activities together. In fact he expects all our weekend time to be together. He even likes it when I sit and help him play video games.

Now what about me? Well I like going to the beach, and snowmobiling is ok. I have to admit I am still very nervous about getting hypothermia again. I can not go as fast as Tony so he does have a boys weekend only from time to time so he can really push the limits. I hate skiing. I am awful at it. I at least give it a go for a couple of hours. Tony is an extream sports person. Everything has to be a personal challange. Lets face it I have not be skiing or snowmobilling as long as he has and he has never given me a chance to learn. I have physically paid the price.

I really think it is more important for men to have "their women" be able to do the same things. I come from the South we do not have snow. I love to dance, he does not. I love to read and he does not. I go to museums, and hike, and trying to finish my masters. He goes hiking with me but that is about it. I have recieved low marks in one of my classes because of Tony. I can not stand that he has not supported me in my goals.

posted March 15, 2000 12:31 PM            

quote:

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...when a couple is in recovery that they should spend if not all at least most of their recreational time together.

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Another good point, since recovery is essentially a rebuilding time. The other thing it does is help build TRUST.

One of the triggers I've had is when my H goes to work on weekends, because I've often feared that he's going off to meet Dragon Lady.

The way I dealt with this was to offer to help him. On those days, we'd go for a hike, then out to breakfast, then go to his office and I'd either help him, surf the Web, or write while he worked. That way it became a way for us to spend some time together.

posted March 15, 2000 12:50 PM            

quote:

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1. Does he (truly) understand how important this is to you?

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Yes, he does. That's why it doesn't bother him when I go out without him.

quote:

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2. Would he be willing to take dance lessons with you?

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posted March 15, 2000 01:46 PM            

Welcome back!!!! Haven't seen you in awhile. I would like to get in on the topic as well, but can't right now kids are being a little demanding- maybe after bedtime (8:00 pst).
Catch-up with you all later when I have more time to read the replies.