posted May 19, 2000 06:41 PM            

She has pretty much been scripting my H with what to say... I'm not dumb. I've heard many of these same things before from her mouth.

I know my H is depressed. He will come up with any lame excuse for his leaving me....alll on me of course. I know I am not perfect....I have told him I am sorry for my part....but he can never come up with anything concrete. ANything he says to his family they say...."who are you talking about".... they say I jumped through hooops for him...

Tell me, since you said PT also could come up with no real reason....what things did you think you needed to change???

I know I have changed since this has happened. I have become a better parent. I have faced many of my fears.. but I have always been a supportive wife....He'll even say that now in counseling.....he just says anything I say bugs him....but no examples....and when we go out or talk we are great...unless we talk about OP.....then that bugs him..

My H will not let me alone..... I want to disengage from him so he can figure it all out...but he will not leave me alone...he calls.....if I don't talk to him much he calls me again to tell me he is worried about me....

He denies everything... and did I get this right with you...(was your H's affair a "friend" ie.no sex??)

My H says it is about "work".

The OP in my case is a looney toon. She has told her h everything. She told him there has been NO sex.. Now she moved out....She wants my H to get off the fence.. She is tired of his procrastination...

I am having a hard time being the only adult rational being....I would almost feel better if he would just not talk to me while this is going on....but he does an d sucks me in again......

Your advice is so helpful....but what vows did you see youself not upholding??????

My H said I wasn't there for him during the stressful time 2 years ago when he changed jobs and began working long hours with OP...

He said I didn't know what it was like to looose a patient and "she" does. I wanted to say "hey" "I'm not in the or with you and she is" I realize he is not rational right now....but how could I even get myself on the same "wavelenght"

The marraige counselor actually said that I would have been more likely to go and do this than him in a couple of years when the kids were older, because I have overfunctioned for him.....

posted May 22, 2000 12:02 PM            

You really do ask the hard questions, don't you? I've been catching up on your posts on both boards (hope I didn't miss any) and I don't know how much help I can be, but I'll be happy to give you what our experiences have been and maybe a little will apply.

At first, when Robert decided to move out, supposedly it WAS just a friendship. He had spent a lot of time at work talking to this girl and all of a sudden realized that he had gotten very close to her. This had gone on for months. Of course, after he left me, then things definitely were physical. When exactly stuff happened, I've never been much interested in.....they lived together, no secrets there and it was a bad time for both of us, so I don't really care...like I've said before, the exact dates don't matter to me, it happened, plain and simple.

I read your post on lying. I think it's just par for the course. Seems to come with the territory. In fact, just after Robert came home, I still had to deal with a bit of that - "protective" and "avoidance" lying mostly, but we've gotten past that now. I had to make sure that complete honesty was rewarded, no matter how much it hurt, until he finally trusted me to be able to take it and still care about him, if you know what I mean.

PT's a bit of a looney toon as well. I've mentioned a few of her missions on this board, but no where near all....and, I think you're right about her "scripting" him. Even after Robert came home, for a while, I could always tell if she'd contact him during the day at work by what came out of his mouth. She's one of those people who can put ideas in other's heads without their knowing it (I know b/c she even did a few numbers on my MIL and she HATES the girl, but she made her believe some stuff). Then they think that THEY thought it up and actually believe the nonsense. Took a while and our getting closer b/f Robert learned to see through that little trick. And no, I couldn't say a word, that would just make him think I was picking on the poor little thing. Thank heavens THAT'S over with now!!!

You know, there's a big similarity b/n us. One of the things that Robert's family said the most was that they didn't understand how he could feel as he did about me - I had always worked my butt off to make sure everything was perfect for him. And they're right, I did...to the point of exhaustion sometimes. I guess the "needs" thing was one of the biggest lessons I learned during this whole mess. You see, I worked myself to death, thinking I was doing all the things I was supposed to do to make my husband happy and feeling a bit unappreciated pretty often. Looks like all too often I wasn't paying attention. By doing all the stuff I thought I was supposed to do, I was ignoring the things that meant the most to him, mostly I think b/c they didn't make sense to me, if you know what I mean. Couldn't be something as easy as sexual fulfillment!! His need to be admired, AND, believe it or not, for affection. And even though I thought I was doing that for him, I wasn't doing it in the way that registered for HIM, but the things that I would appreciate instead. Big fat waste of time and energy!!!

Vows I broke? Love, honor, cherish - we spoke them to each other...I loved him, but not in the way he needed to be loved. And if I'm not loving him like he needed to be loved, in all honesty, I'm not really loving him, am I? Honor, I don't think I did. I don't think either of us did, really. Cherish, nope, took him and his love for granted. Didn't really appreciate all the things that made him the man he is. That was dumb. No matter how hard I tried to do what I thought was right, in dismissing the things I thought were stupid, I was in essence, saying HE was stupid because they were important to him. Dumb, dumb, dumb. That's not exactly honoring and cherishing.

You know, in our vows, the minister did the "like the string is to the bow" thing. That made me think a lot. Didn't do it. I see a hundred million LITTLE things now that don't seem to be a big deal. Doesn't seem like the little things should matter, but they do, you know. My normal "mountain" analogy - a tidal wave won't wash away a mountain, but a steady drip can wear it away over the years. I think love's a lot like that, know what I mean?

Oh, yeah, chatty me, back to PT. Well, I finally figured it out and boy did I feel good when I did. SHE'S not my problem. Her effect on Robert is not my problem. She's not competition; there's no way to compete with that. The only thing I have to address is me and MY relationship with him. and since I couldn't control how he treated me, I was really only responsible for how I treated him AND me! I changed my focus. I finally realized that no one, not PT, not him, NO ONE could jeopardize my relationship with my husband if I made it a great one. I set about (on my own - no help from him) to find myself first and then find out what was important to my husband. I threw out all my old opinions and ideas and started really paying attention. His work - hey, I'm not an electrician, but there HAD to be some way to "get involved". So I learned more so that when he talked, I could ask informed questions....he started talking his head off! He loved it! His hunting...looked up new recipes for stuff I had never cooked b/f (mostly 'cause he never actually KILLED it b/f LOL) and talked about them....he loved it! AND believe it or not, cut down considerably on the time he spent DOING it. Weirdest thing. Little things, little things, tons of little things that seemed to make such a difference to him. It took some time, but he NOTICED, he started RESPONDING. It sounds so strange, but he's telling me over and over all the time how wonderful I am, how much he's always loved me ("even when I didn't act like I did"), how he can't believe he has a second chance with such a terrific woman. And you know, I'm getting all this with a LOT less effort than I put in before. It's EASY. It just took throwing out the old ideas and leaving a space for the new ones.

It's strange, too, but once I realized that PT wasn't my enemy, I was, I stopped worrying about her pretty much. It didn't seem to matter what she pulled, if he talked to her, nothing. Because, until I got my own house in order, if it wasn't her, it would be someone else or no one at all that could tear us apart. She was just a sympton - not the disease. Does that make any sense? Sure made MY life easier, not to worry about her and what she was saying all the time. And Robert got stronger, too. Started seeing through the fog - soon HE was the one trashing her and I'd just sit and listen. Amazing. Now, she's just an annoyance, like a gnat at a picnic - gets on our nerves, but doesn't ruin the picnic! And she's giving up - I think. One call last week and as he's checking caller id "well, looks like our favorite person called today" and that was it. She wasn't my problem - I was, my misconceptions were, my neglect of what was important was...not PT. She never was and never will be. She was just standing there with the net - I threw him into the water - and never even meant to do it, didn't even realize it. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

When your H said you weren't there for him, that was probably a big thing to him. And I'll bet you were, trying as hard as you could, but NOT in the way he needed. We tend to do what we think is best, but not always pay attention to the feedback. And I don't really think they can tell us, I don't think they even know sometimes. But it doesn't matter, the damage still gets done.

Honesty, responsibility, committment on his part. I never asked for any of it. I don't believe in conditions, although I know there really should be. But I needed for him to come to those on his own. I controlled me, I changed MY behavior and my though processes and lo and behold, his started changing too! I gave him the love and space to allow him to do it on his own. It meant the most to me that way and, it turns out, to him as well. Restitution - blech! His restitution to me is contributing to a great future together. Hey, what CAN he do to make up for what we went through this last year? Make it go away? heck no! Learn from it and make a great marriage - there you go! I don't need to be right or made up to, I need to be happy. That's it. And, ok, if he needs to make this up to ME, then how do I make up to him the years of not paying attention to what was important to him. Can you imagine how much that hurt? For so long?

Sorry this is long and it may not make any sense to anyone else, but it was perfect for us. I have an amazing peace now. I'm not jealous, I don't worry (99% of the time) and I trust him. I couldn't trust the man he WAS, but I can trust the man he is. Know what I mean? Just last night, out of the blue, he said to me, "You know, I can honestly say with a clear conscience that right now there are no secrets, no lies, no nothing between us. I don't know that it's ever been like that before. I can't tell you how good it feels." Then he went on and on again. And he's right, it DOES feel good.

I know you're having a hard time right now and I don't know if I've helped at all. I'll be thinking of you.

Love and prayers,

posted May 22, 2000 12:45 PM            

H and I attended a day long marriage retreat/conference this past weekend called "I Still Do".One of the speakers brought up a very good point about the vow "forsaking all others".He mentioned how men forsake us by getting to close to other women,in whatever intensity,it's wrong.He then mentioned that the wives forsake their husbands when the kids come along(the vow says to forsake ALL others) and then kids and house and activities take priority in the wife's life.We pat ourselves on the back for being Supermoms and our husbands suffer in silence.Can you imagine how selfish it would sound if they complained about all the IMPORTANT stuff we are tending to.That's why we often don't hear their pain, they dare not speak it.

posted May 22, 2000 12:54 PM            

He actually admitted to the counselor that the problems with us started during the two years that his greatest stress was going on at work.....

Unfortunaltey, while this stress was taking place, he had to work very hard with OP at his side. I was never really on an equal playing field anyway. He worked 10 hour days, 7 days a week, on call 24 hours a day for a year. (no call coverage). I was lucky if I saw him 2 hours in the evening...with 3 small whiny kids....We couldn't even take a vacation....although I did with the kids...

You are right. I did think I was there for him during this time......I.m sure now I wasn't the way he needed me to be.....I have acknowledged that over and over.....

I am mad this weekend that he can't see that i might not have been able to be there for him if she was there........She knew what to do...and you are right! I took for granted that because he said he loved me and because we were making love frequently that we were OK. I say OK, because I knew it was a difficult time for us.......I unfortunatly took for granted that we would smooth it out as his work settled down, he got a partner, and as our 3rd child would enter kindergarten.

My H is a surgeon. I am a critical care nurse...I do know what goes on with his patients and I have always been able to converse about that subject... He STOPPED talking to me about work when he came back from the trip.

He lives in a very protected world, where there are lots of staff people to do everyting for him...all women....all admiring him...... Then OP, his assistant, filters all for him in and out. He doesn't have to schedule anything, call anyone , actually DO anything but operate......

THis seems to be the whole world he needs right now. I know I can't change that....

As you've seen, when I focus on me and improving....he woos me....then when he seems to feel secure that I'm here, he grows distant, cold, mean to me and the kids....I feel manipulated and it gets worse.

Do you have small children.... I just feel like I'd be able to disengage better if the kids weren't getting so emotionally smashed as well.

Thank you so much for your input...Everyone who has responded to me during this really tough time has helped me so much. I keep getting angry on this board, but so far I have not blown PLan A (except for a few digs at OP after her H called)

posted May 22, 2000 01:17 PM            

Just checking on you!

Keep looking, keep working on you, the rest will come.

We have one daughter, she'll be 16 next month - AAUUGGGHHHH!!! She's terrific and a wonderful child, but she reacted to all this mess as only a teenager can!!! (Insert very loud scream here!!! )

good luck.

posted May 22, 2000 05:08 PM            

I can definitely see mistakes that I made like the ones you mentioned. I am really happy at the progress you two have made. You are amazing!

Has everything really been smooth sailing? No bumps or setbacks at all? I'm still hoping for that "temporary honeymoon phase" that I keep reading about!

Thanks for sharing your expertise with the rest of us!

posted May 22, 2000 05:54 PM            

Hi, Peppermint! 'Course there were/are bumps here and there. The first couple of weeks were absolute he$$!!! He was ready to move back out to "get his head straight" by day #3!!! PT has absolutely driven us nuts (for a while) - you wouldn't believe the stunts she pulled. And remember, Mom got really ill w/in a WEEK after he came home.

But....we've handled them well - pretty much. I've had my first real cry, we've had our first argument...and we did good!

I expect more bumps, but I know we can handle them. We believe in us....that gets us through the tough times. That makes it easier.

Lori

posted May 22, 2000 07:51 PM            

Just a note to LostVa...

Can I be you when I grow up? Please?

You are incredible and my bedside table is quickly filling up with copies of your posts.

allison

posted May 23, 2000 12:10 AM            

Fabulous post, except for one thing, you left your guard down. I now know the secret of the ages!

You are actually K. And K is really Dr H. The Card Faery is your sister's cousin's neighbor's paper boy in college.

How long did you think you could keep up this charade?

I may be an idiot, but I am not dum. And remember dum spelled backwards is mud.

Really great post.