posted August 29, 2000 11:08 AM            

Like I said before shortly after H and I reconciled I ceased thinking about Plan A. Actually I didn't even know about Plan A until AFTER we got back together, but I was using similar methods from a christion marriage book and a minister who was counseling me. H has no idea Plan A or Plan B exists. We both realized how important communication is, what each others needs are, where we both went went wrong earlier in the marriage. We don't live by a "plan" we just live. We treat each other with respect and love, go out of our way to compliment each other and do nice things and it is wonderful. that is the way a marriage should be. It's not walking on eggshells or being forced, it's just the way we are now.

While I was in "Plan A" or my version of it it was VERY difficult at times. That's why it doesn't work for a lot of people. My H and I NEVER discuss the affair, I NEVER throw it in his face. That is the kind of person I am though. You can only beat a dead horse for so long in my eyes. If I had made a horrible mistake, was very remorseful, doing everything in my power to make up for it (all of which H has done) I wouldn't want it thrown in my face forever. H has been beyond reproach since the EMR, he has treated me like a queen. Ironically I probably have the best H of any of my friends now. He is happy, I am happy. Yes, I still have triggers (less and less) but there is nothing he can do about that. It's something I have to deal with, he can't help me with that. If you don't have the kind of personality to deal with post EMR in a certain way then nothing will work. Once you reconcile and the A is over if you still keep thinking in terms of "Plans" you are probably doomed. One hting to keep in mind about is that I NEVER wanted to know details about the affair, it was irrelevant. What mattered was working on us. It was OW who insisted on telling me all about it, that's where my triggers came from.

P.S. - The main reason I still lurk on these boards is to share my experiences with others and to let others know that there is hope. I had this done for me by several people while I was going through it and it really helped. I want to do the same for others.

posted August 29, 2000 11:56 AM            

(WARNING! LONG RAMBLE AHEAD!)

EB, My H DuncanMac & myself are another success story... took a very long time to get here, and involved my infidelity (plus all the emotional fallout that goes with it) many years ago, plus DM's brief affair 2 yrs ago (more of that fallout).

We've spent an enormous amount of time learning about each other and the dynamics of our marriage. This is something that has to happen sooner or later in ANY marriage. To us, packing in an investment like that without wringing EVERY drop of effort and committment out of ourselves was just not an option. Even less of one once we had kids.

So guess what? Eventually everything "gelled". All the pieces flying around for so long fell into place. NOW we're enjoying the fruits of all our hard work. We're having more fun, laughing more, teasing more, talking more, more , than we ever have.

Are there scars? Sure. Who gets through life without 'em? We've inflicted plenty of them on each other. But that's *over* now. We've learned it's a lot more rewarding to care for each other and be nice to each other and ENJOY each other, than to punish each other for past mistakes. Plan A isn't just an artificial construct; it's a way of life. The "two Lors" have put it very well.

Affairs aren't only about betrayal. They're about deep unhappiness, DEEP confusion. The betrayer isn't addicted to their OP, so much as they are to how they feel about *themselves* in the OP's company. In my opinion, an affair often happens because there's something inside the betrayer screaming to get out, something they've ignored or stuffed down or discounted. They're in the throes of some kind of emotional upheaval that will lead to a "growth spurt". It's almost like a volcano erupting under great pressure. It ain't pretty, but it's gonna blow!

This is where all the "soulmate" stuff comes from. The betrayer is tapping into something *essential* within themselves, something they absolutely must integrate into their lives ('course, nobody knows this AT THE TIME, more's the pity... ).

You've all the heard the expression "an inch deep and a mile wide"? Well, an affair is an inch wide and a mile deep. The mistake the betrayer makes, when blissfully enjoying that mile, is thinking that the bliss will carry over into every aspect of his life, *as long as the OP is there* - in other words, the OP has been accorded magical powers to make everything all right forever.

Well, we all know that ain't so. I think this is where a lot of the confusion and disagreement over the question "Is it 'REAL' or is it a 'FANTASY'?" comes from. In my opinion - it's both. In some way, the affair has given the WS permission to be "more himself" (we've often heard that, right? And I felt it in my own affair). But it's only in certain, narrow ways (an inch wide), while the rest of his/her everyday life (the mile wide)is forgotten.

The Harley methods are all about understanding that a WS is, for all intents and purposes, temporarily insane. And that most of them will figure that out sooner or later. Remember - *it's not about the OP* - it's about the WS blowing an emotional gasket that has been building up pressure. And statistics bear out the fact that very few affairs result in marriage - even fewer in a successful marriage.

Plan A is a way of dealing with an insane spouse in a way which minimizes the potential to drive them away. Does it succeed in saving the marriage every time? Nope. But I'll wager that in those that *do* survive, it's been a factor. Part of the "Affair Syndrome" is that the WS demonizes the spouse: they're unreasonable, mean, grouchy, frigid, can't understand me, no fun, blah blah blah.... a good Plan A defuses and invalidates these demonized opinions.

Alright, I've been rambling here...(WHERE was I going with this?? ). The upshot is: do you want to save your marriage to this person? Do you think the "bare bones", the basic structure, is good? Were things good before your spouse turned into an alien? Then this is your best shot. Wait it out. Don't give them ammunition to further their "cause". Give them as much "food for thought" as you can...hmmmm...wow, she's being really reasonable...and *nice*!...I can't believe I'm having fun with her... (meanwhile OP is becoming a B*tch On Wheels...reality DOES have a way of creeping in).

At some point in recovery, the BS has to be able to separate the person from the acts. The acts were horrible; the person who eventually re-emerges from the madness is not. It *is* possible to do - and it's neccessary. What is the priority here - holding a grudge or healing the marriage? Keep your eye on the horizon & keep putting one foot in front of the other. I've learned it's the only way to get anywhere. There's no magic formula. It just *happens* sooner or later if you keep trying to do the right things.

posted August 29, 2000 11:59 AM            

quote:

---

Um, I know this is your mantra, and I appreciate that you feel they've helped you in your marriage. Don't take this wrong K, but the fact that you are happy in a sexless marriage is sad to me. It's not that you don't want it, you DO, which is what makes it sad. Remember, I have been reading here for a year, and I do respect the progress you've made. But I wouldn't call it a success.

---

Why is "being happy in a sexless marriage" sad to you? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that---it's no worse that "being happy in a marriage where your spouse doesn't earn $1,000,000/year"?

So, I'm much happier in my marriage now than I was three years ago. Proof that this stuff works. Proof that it is "successful". And as others have intonated, proof that it can work (perhaps not to perfection) if only one spouse is practicing the philosophy.

Now, "being happy in a sexless marriage" is not the same as "being happy that your marriage is sexless". It's completely different, and I'm sure you're aware of it. I'm not happy that my marriage is sexless---far from it. And I'm committed to doing what I can to turn it around.

And thankfully, my wife has come around to this point of view, and is now counseling with Jennifer Harley to work on her issues surrounding this.

As you indicated, you see progress in my situation. Positive progress. I do too---otherwise, I wouldn't be here working on "spreading the word". I'd agree with you in that we're not a complete success yet---I'd call this more of a work in progress. But we're 90% of the way there, and I'm pretty confident that we'll get the remaining 10%.

In the big picture, if I do a risk/benefit analysis of all my options, I've been way ahead using the MB system than anything else. I don't have problems with the "pain" of the affair---it really is a rare occurance when I think of it in a negative (painful) light. I have a beautiful family intact---something that would have been unacheivable with divorce. I have a wife who does love me---there's the issue of not being "romantically" in love with me, but that's something that is fixable.

Big gains. Not much risk. What other options would you have me consider???

posted August 29, 2000 12:00 PM            

Life is mostly gray areas. Marriage is full of gray areas. I will probably never call me or my marriage a success. It is a work in progress. Plan A is a process. A work in progress.

Do I check the books to make sure things comply with Plan A? NOT. To me Plan A is about doing the best I can in every area of my life. How to treat others in a way that will improve the relationship. It's a way of life.

Do I share my feelings about H's affair with him? Yes. He insists that I do that. Does Plan A say that I can't do that?

My H has turned into a wonderful man. Better than he ever was before the affair.

I still hurt. I still have bad memories. They are not attached to the man he is now. That is part of forgiving. You hurt from the memories. But you have to separate the person from the acts. If I left him I would still have bad memories. He wants to help me get through them.

Our marriage is far from perfect. I am far from perfect. I am not a success. I am a woman who has learned a huge amount from this forum and Dr. Harley's teachings. A woman who loves her H enough to work through this with him.

posted August 29, 2000 12:43 PM            

Just a couple of thoughts from my own experience (in process but what I would call successful following the MB principles).

Plan A is my new way of life. When I came to this site I was hopeless and desperate. I was pretty dazed for a couple of weeks but as soon as I pulled it together I started to follow the MB principles and, over time, my relationship with my H has improved considerably. Plan A is really just how we ought to treat our spouses anyway! It surely describes how I want to be treated.

Re. the pain and never forgetting - at least for me the pain IS diminishing as time goes on. And my H's EA will probably never be erased from my memory, but I think of it only occasionally now as compared to every minute of every day shortly after D-day. I do believe that forgiveness and prayer has had a lot to do with the release of pain, in addition to the improved relationship with my H.

It sounds as though your pain has turned into bitterness. There's a book called "Betrayal's Baby" by Bunny Wilson (I think that is the author's name) that is helpful in getting past bitterness.

God bless you.

periwinkle

posted August 29, 2000 12:45 PM            

Can you ever forget the OP or the A? Personally, I don't think that I ever will. Can I forgive it - probably, even though I'm not even close yet. I'm doing Plan A more for myself than anything. I haven't been a good wife to my H. I'm going to start, and if things still don't change in my marriage, then I can move on and not have the "What ifs?" or "If onlys..." that I would if I hadn't put forth a 100% effort.

Also, EB, keep in mind that for the most part, you are seeing the absolute worst parts of marriages in this room. Very rarely do you see somebody post about the positive steps that they're making - usually people come in here when they're feeling hurt and frustrated, and they don't want to take it out on their S & make things worse. The posts here are not necessarily a reflection of the marriage as a whole.

Even Dr. Harley himself says that adultery is the most selfish, thoughtless act a person can commit. But it happens in the majority of marriages. You have to gauge for yourself whether you want to work on it and whether your S is really sorry and wants to work things through or if he's just sorry he got caught. (I'm going to get reamed by everybody for that one, but certain people have a different concept of right and wrong. You could be the perfect S to certain people, and they'll STILL cheat.) I would still argue that the MB is effective for self-improvement in all situations, as long as you're open-minded to the process.

posted August 29, 2000 12:48 PM            

I disagree with you on the blanket statement "this stuff doesn't work" I believe that this "stuff" does in fact work with "some" people, but maybe with not all. Like everything else in life, the marriagebuilders principles and theories can guarantee absolutely nothing, but I do believe that they can offer people a plan as to how to recover and rebuild.

I read much of what is written on this site, as you do, and I too feel that there is not very much success, as I would define success, that goes on. Maybe that is because those who have "real" success leave this site. I too have read about some of these so-called success stories and have thought to myself that this doesn't seem much like a marriage that I would want to be in, but the sentiments that you have expressed does not often get posted because of the fear of being attacked.

I think that it is unfair that some have attacked you for posting your thoughts because these thoughts are contrary to the marriagebuilders principles. I am sure that of the many people that simply lurk on this site, your thoughts are not that uncommon, but why comment when you are going to be attacked. I have posted similar thoughts and I have been attacked, but it doesn't bother me, but I'm sure for others it would.

I am a firm believer in that not every marriage is salvageable or even should be salvaged(this is the type of stuff that has had me flamed before, how dare I come to this site if I'm not for ALL marriages being saved, NO MATTER WHAT), but I think that is for the individuals in that relationship to decide for themselves. I do believe that before coming to that decision, every effort should be made to first find out if you really want the marriage or whether or not the marriage is worth having, and I do believe the principles here will help with that decision.

I am not sure my own marriage can be saved, there is a long history of pain that precedes my W's affair, that both my W and I are working to overcome. I don't know if my marriage will ever be a good one, I don't know if I or my W will ever be able to overcome all that has happened, I don't know if staying married is the "right thing" for us to do, but I do know that I want to make sure that every effort is made to find the answers to those questions. If we follow the principles here and we end up in a great marriage down the road, then I will be one helluva happy guy, but if we end up parting, at least I will know that I gave it my all and left no stone unturned, but I don't think I would end up saying that this stuff doesn't work, it just didn't work for me.

So before you give up on your marriage, give these principles your best shot, if it is simply too much for you to handle, or you feel that there is simply too much to overcome, then part with your spouse and move forward with your life.

No one here on this site should sit in judgement of you or criticize you because of the decision that you make, you know more than anyone here, what is best for you, how much you can endure, what you can live with, I simply advise that you give it your all first and see what happens, who knows, you may be surprised

posted August 29, 2000 12:49 PM            

Energizer, unfortunately I am feeling like you at this phase of my recovery w/ H. I just hadn't put it into words. Your post struck a big chord with me. Although I come here for some insights into certain things, I don't necessarily feel that all of the principles within this site work, or are beneficial for long-term success. I also feel that it depends on the very individual personalites of the people that practice them.

Some people can be hurt very badly, but have something in their emotional make-up which allows them to recover and bounce back within a reasonable amount of time. Others can have very small things happen to them, and they will feel the pain of it and have a hard time letting go for AGES. I still have friends from 6th grade, that have done some crappy things to me over the years, and after awhile it is always forgotten. If my H were to be in my position, he would have cut them out of his life long ago. He just isn't willing to forgive and forget. Imagine having this quality when faced with an infidelity of a spouse.

posted August 29, 2000 01:00 PM            

For those who feel the need to "attack" what I'm saying: and really, I don't feel very attacked, rather I feel kind of energized, and it makes me think. I'm a pretty strong person and can take it. So thank you for making me think.

For those who understand: THANK YOU for your kind words and wisdom. I'm moved beyond words by the support. You also make me think, and I think I'm on the right track.

For all of you. My marriage is over. My h is still with his ow, to be honest. She wasn't the first either. I never forgot the first one. EVER. That's where I'm coming from.

EB

posted August 29, 2000 01:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Monen:
......I still have friends from 6th grade, that have done some crappy things to me over the years, and after awhile it is always forgotten. If my H were to be in my position, he would have cut them out of his life long ago. He just isn't willing to forgive and forget. Imagine having this quality when faced with an infidelity of a spouse.

---

posted August 29, 2000 01:55 PM            

You are obviously very wounded and just recently I might add, in regards to another A for your H.

It is also obvious that you did not change any of your situations or habits that may have been causes for the other A. Therefore, you and your H left the door wide open for another A.

With your hardened cold attitude you have taught your H how to treat you.

I am sorry if you are in pain. Alot of us are and we struggle day by day. Most of us have chosen to post here in an effort to share that pain and eventually get to a point of feeling secure enough to share very intimate details and ask for help and support.

Your post did seem very volatile and you also have learned from lurking here many private, intimate issues regarding others and their relationships. I don't appreciate your attacking others personally. I feel you have no right to do that. The issues that someone has shared with the rest of us are very sensitive and personal. They need our love, understanding and support. Which is what I believe you need too.

I think you need counseling. You are far to bitter, angry and hurt and not feeling very positive about you, your H and certainly not any of us.

We can all do better, if not for the marriage, then for ourselves. Because, until you can look yourself in the mirror and honestly say, I've done everything I can do...
don't judge or criticize the rest of us for our efforts to rebuild a relationship for whatever our reasons. It's all about comittment, attitude, and self-love. I know, I work on this daily.

posted August 29, 2000 02:03 PM            

Are you saying I caused my h to cheat on me by my (what you classify as) cold hardened attitude??? I'm cold and hardened why? Because I cannot forget the pain his affairs caused me? That makes ME cold and hardened? And my h? Not his fault because I'm not a person worthy of being faithful to???

Somebody please tell me that it isn't the fault of the betrayed that the spouse has an affair. I believe in personal responsibility, and take responsibility for MY actions. I won't take responsibility for his.

posted August 29, 2000 02:31 PM            

I cannot BELIEVE I am doing this... and if Jim drops by, jeez, I know I said I wouldn't even lurk... wow, it's embarrassing, but I meant it when I said it! I just can't seem to help myself on dreery, rainy, hot days like today!

For what it's worth, EB, I agree with you for the most part. My stbx calls MB Marriage Busters, not Marriage Builders. We, for whatever reason, just couldn't make the concepts work for us. I wish I could have done what they call a Perfect Plan A on him and wooed him home to me. And oh how I wish he could have AT LEAST tried with me. I wish I could have forgotten his five affairs and he could have forgotten my one. (And this, by the way, is where I REALLY agree with you... thirteen years ago were his first three affairs, and you truly NEVER do forget! ) I wish we could have made it. But we didn't.

I am dating one man exclusively now (no flames please) and he is the only one since the filing of the divorce. The only thing I can say is that it does feel pretty darned nice to have someone love me without feeling this heavy weight of the HISTORY on my shoulders.

I will always have a KIND of love for David, but I no longer have the love that's needed to sustain a marriage. That's sad. That's reality though.

I just hope to God that I've learned something to take into my next marriage (and yes,I will get married again because I LOVE BEING MARRIED) so I don't make the same mistakes again.

posted August 29, 2000 02:38 PM            

I agree with Catplay in a way, and I disagree in a way. NOTHING EXCUSES AN AFFAIR!!! It is purely selfish, and I don't care WHAT a spouse does. Even if it's a revenge affair, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT.

For you, EB, leaving is probably the best thing that you can do. But PLEASE get some counseling for yourself. I do agree w/Catplay in the sense that your behavior did play a role in putting your marriage in the condition it's in. Don't get me wrong - like I said, that does not justify him having an affair. That was his selfish choice. But if you made the decision to stay with him the first time he cheated, you made the decision to work past that affair. If you held the A over his head and continually threw it back in his face, you did a tremendous amount of damage to the marriage yourself. I'm not trying to attack you - I've had to learn this lesson the hard way.