posted August 29, 2000 02:44 PM            

You know that you're one of my favorite people here---but I'm trying to figure this out:

quote:

---

I wish I could have done what they call a Perfect Plan A on him and wooed him home to me. And oh how I wish he could have AT LEAST tried with me.

---

Then really, I'd take great exception to your husband's definition of "Marriage Busters". What exactly did he follow that failed him in the MB protocol??? Nothing. I can't remember David doing one damn thing to follow "The Four Rules".

So, his opinion counts for nothing with me. He didn't do it.

Your side I feel for. Because you tried to implement this MB stuff. But you did so without professional help---and you know that it's my opinion that you could have used it. Whether it would have made a difference and saved your marriage---you can never know now.

posted August 29, 2000 02:51 PM            

There are a lot of marriage programs that line up very closely to MB. I used MB, I used TORN ASUNDER, DIVORCE BUSTERS, YOUR HUSBAND'S MIDLIFE CRISIS, LOVE LIFE, MENDING BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS, HOW TO GET YOUR LOVER BACK , HOPE FOR THE SEPARATED, LOVE MUST BE TOUGH, the whole MARS/VENUS series among many others. I own a bookstore and was reading nearly one marriage/self-help book a day for a long time--until my counselor advised me that perhaps I should take a break and read some fiction...or humor... .

There is no doubt that infidelity creates horrible stress for a marriage. I think a lot of us are saying that from our view point, you can choose to forgive and the wound does heal, a marriage phoenix can rise from the rubble & ashes. That's what I'm planning on, I don't want the old marriage back, I don't want the misery of the last years, I want and believe my marriage will be stronger for the knowledge we have gained.

You said <<Yes, I see you as somewhat of a success story, but only time will truly
tell. Did you think you were a success story the last time you got back
together? Or the time before that? Again, I am not trying to be
mean-spirited at all. I respect you and all that you are doing to repair
your marriage.>>

Hmm, y' missed the part where I said what other people say about my marriage doesn't matter? Oh, you know I'm not that tough. Right here, right now my marriage is a success according to my viewpoint. And to answer, no, several of the times he came home I hoped it would be successful, but it felt (and turned out to be) shaky and/or doomed. That's part of the reason I didn't let him move home this last time when he wanted to, then when I was ready, he had issues with my behavior, so another month went by. The 3 1/2 months he's been home is the longest he's lived here since Aug 98.

<<Re: 2) The WS can truly turn around and be a full partner of the
marriage.

And what happened after that to make him go astray? Or you? I am not
trying to yank your chain here, I'm trying to understand. You did a
"perfect plan a" and he went back to the latest OW. What makes you think
it will be different this time? Honestly.>>

He only had the one OW. I had the old affair, and the EA during the last separation. The difference is he is giving it his all & has already lasted 8 months, before the difference in him lasted 2-3 weeks and he would talk of leaving. I kept him out of the house Jan-May because I did not believe there could be a true change. I was wrong. I call this a success now, because it is one, and I am not borrowing trouble for the future. We aren't just sliding into this, we're still going to counseling, we're both intentionally meeting each other's needs, we're spending the 15 hours a week together, we're making plans for the future--something he'd refused to do for a long time.

<<Re: 4) You say you don't have patience. For MB to work, you do need
patience, you need love, you need strength of character, you need to
know who you are and what you've got inside you, AND you need to let
time pass.

How much time, would you say? Again, I'm asking sincerely.>>

You can set an arbitrary time at the end of which you reconsider, like Dr. Harley's recommendations of Plan A 6 months, Plan B 18 months. My H fit right into the stats that the affair breaks down in 6-18 months after discovery. If 2 years makes your hair stand on end, like it did for me, and YOUR HUSBAND'S MIDLIFE CRISIS talks about a 5 year plan you can think of it like a child's teenage years, you don't live through age 12-20 all at once, you go day by day, things change quickly at some times, slowly at others.

<<Re: Personal success takes 1. Marital success takes 2

Totally flies in the face of what Still Praying says. Wonder which one
is right?>>

I can't pinpoint that part of SP's post. I'm just saying my success as a person does not depend on me being married, it's how I choose to live my life. And although I think one person can keep the marriage viable while the other is, as Suse puts it "insane", a working marriage demands both partners.

What it all boils down to for me is there is nothing for me to regret in having done varying intensities of Plan A for 18 months. From a reconciliation view, I'm not so pleased with what I did from Jan to May, but I thought my marriage was over, I was taking steps toward divorce and a life without Guard.

But I know without a shadow of a doubt that my H's Plan A at that point brought me back to the point of reconciliation, just as my Plan A to him had created enough good feelings for me within him that he no longer wanted me out of his life--when he had just that opportunity.

If he had not done Plan A, or changed his behavior and we had divorced, I believe I would have been ok then as well. True that is supposition...but staying in limbo just was not an option for me anymore. The marriage was an option, as was the divorce, but limbo was not.

posted August 29, 2000 02:57 PM            

Just a quick note soas not to infringe on this thread...

THANK YOU for your unwavering support!

...AND you bet your butt I'll use everything I learned to make my next marriage last!

That's all

posted August 29, 2000 03:27 PM            

Again, thank you.

posted August 29, 2000 03:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catplay:

It is also obvious that you did not change any of your situations or habits that may have been causes for the other A. Therefore, you and your H left the door wide open for another A.

With your hardened cold attitude you have taught your H how to treat you.

---

That is totally and completely unfair. Why is it that different feelings, emotions, thoughts and opinions can't be expressed if they slightly contradict all that marriagebuilders is supposed to represent? It seems to me that this type of attack would be a major LB if it was done in our own relationships.

quote:

---

You are far to bitter, angry and hurt and not feeling very positive about you, your H and certainly not any of us.

---

Why would anyone feel any different than this if they are going to be attacked for stating a thought or opinion. I'm sure there are many people out there who share EB's thoughts and feelings, but are afraid to post because of the reaction.

quote:

---

don't judge or criticize the rest of us for our efforts to rebuild a relationship for whatever our reasons

---

Maybe I missed it somewhere along this thread, but I didn't see this happening. I saw an expression of what I believe many people see on this site everyday, which is why we get the "Are there any success stories out there" threads started from time to time. What I have seen however is this exact thing being done to those who come to points in their lives that they feel they need to move on from their relationships or who have the audacity to question some of the principles on this site...........that is wrong!!

EB, you are a grown woman and I'm sure you don't need anybody defending you, but I too often have the same feelings and thoughts that you do and I don't think it is right to be attacked for posting those thoughts.

posted August 29, 2000 03:46 PM            

You have to be honest with yourself. Do you really want a healthy, happy marriage with this person, or do you just want revenge? Not making any personal judgements, but I think that a lot of us BS fall into that trap.

You have to be very very honest about what you have done that contributed to the affair, contributed to the marriage turning ugly. Even if you are going ahead with the divorce, please do this. Because if you haven't learned from your mistakes (and perhaps you really have, I'm not making a judgement about you) you will probably repeat them with whoever comes along next.

The MB principles are gold. They are the guidelines of a perfect union, IMHO. With whoever you end up with. Affair or no. They are the Rules of How to Be and Have the Perfect Mate. The Golden Rule, really.

Does it mean you can't do whatever you want whenever you want? Uh-huh. Yes, you will not be able to LB, vent angry feelings, etc. Hello, that's life. If you are never willing to protect your spouse from your angry outbursts, you are hurting him just as he hurt you with his affair. You have a destructive habit, and two wrongs do not a right make.

You say you are not willing to protect your spouse from these angry outbursts. Angry outbursts are unhealthy and only hurt people. To me, that sounds like a wife-beater saying he has these urges to lash out violently but is unwilling to curb them. And if he "has" to control them for the rest of his life, that's not a marriage.

IMO, a BS is in a particularly strange position, of wanting to make the marriage work, and yet not wanting to. This is why we fail.

We want to get our spouses back, want them to love us again. But not if it means admitting how we were wrong. Truly adopting the MB principles means being really honest, going "Oh, wow, I totally do that, all the time. I can see how that was hurting you, and I'm so sorry. I'm going to change that behavior, today, forever. I will not hurt you anymore. No matter what. No matter how I feel."

But as BS, we really don't want to do that. You see, we are the Wronged One. We cling to our status as the Great Innocent Hurt spouse, we refuse to give it up and take responsibility for what we did wrong, and change our ways.

Every step along the way, all through Plan A & B, we LB like crazy. BSs are experts at LBing. It goes with the territory. And then we justify it - we get very good at justifying it.

If our spouses had a digital window to our Love Bank accounts printed on their foreheads, perhaps we'd be more sensitive - what do you think? Every time we LBed we'd see the reading go down a couple of points, and every time we met an EN or avoided an LB (even when it's very difficult, which it sometimes is), we'd see the reading go up a couple of points. Wouldn't that be great?

Personally, I have to say my H & I are a success story. He cheated (PA only), yet was still very much in love with me. I was going to stay anyway, but my love for him was severely threatened. By carefully following the Four Rules (we read "Surviving the Affair" together), our marriage soared to new heights in very little time.

I say success because we are:

Teachable and working on whatever problems arise, when they arise.
Very much in Love.
Very happy together.
Members of a wonderful, cherished family.
Forgiving, and forgiven.
Trusting, and trusted.
Trying to understand better my part in the affair.
Striving to meet each other's ENs.
Committed to one another.
Following (and loving) the Rules of Protection, Care, Honesty, and Time.

The Affair still hurts. But so does a lot of things in life. It *will* diminish to a manageable size. This is certain.

Crazy - a question: why is it so bad to be trying to be better than the OW? I didn't follow you there. You say your Plan A has backfired because your spouse is on to you. I don't get it. Once the novelty of the A wears off, and the OW starts to become a b****, trust me, he's going to *want* someone better than the OW. I'd say you are looking better and better all the time. Don't give up yet.

posted August 29, 2000 04:54 PM            

energizer_bunny,
A couple of pages ago you mentioned something that I said regarding co-operation. To clarify, what I mean is that it only takes one spouse to begin the process of turning things around, specifically plan "A" concepts and leading the spouse back to intimacy, but ultimately both have to be interested in saving the marriage.

Also, it's unfortunate to hear that your's is over. You need to do what makes you happy in life. You obviously know better than us what kind of person he is, and whether or not he would ever be trustworthy again.

As for flaming you, I guess I was a little taken back by the blanket statements that I perceived you making. I was trying to get you to ask yourself some questions, and of course I had no idea of who you are or what you've been through or tried.

Now, so that I can get flamed. I firmly believe that other than parent/child parent/stepchild sexual abuse, and possibly a marriage that was started because of a pregnency instead of love, every marriage can be saved.

That is of, course keeping something in mind: That the spouse that wants to save the marriage does what is necessary in the beginning. If it means forgiving, then they must forgive. If it means changing into a better person, then they must change.

posted August 29, 2000 05:27 PM            

I am not blaming you for your H's decisions to have affairs. This is not your fault!
I am saying with your attitude so cold and hard at this time, I don't believe you will believe any thing or any one can help you.

I am most certainly defending people on this site and their integrity. I fully believe that no one has the right to sign on here after reading all of this very personal information and judging those of us who are so vunerable and yet so willingly shared their "story" in hopes of healing from their pain and moving forward knowing they have done all they can do...

posted August 29, 2000 05:56 PM            

I must disagree. See the following posts:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009174.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000047.html

If you'd like to chat by email, let me know.

posted August 29, 2000 05:58 PM            

Re: I am not blaming you --then-- with your attitude so cold and hard

I am not cold and hard. Why do you think I am?

Re: I fully believe that no one has the right to sign on here after reading all of this very personal information and judging those of us who are so vunerable and yet so willingly shared their "story" in hopes of healing from their pain and moving forward
knowing they have done all they can do...

I am vulnerable just like you. And what have I said that makes you think I am using personal information and hurting people with it?

I don't get it.

*Still at work, still reading, still thinking about all of this. Thanks for the replies.

posted August 29, 2000 06:20 PM            

As eveyone has said, your pain is intense and palpable. We are all here because we are hurting so badly that we cannot STAND it anymore. While you are totally correct that Harley's methods do not work for everyone, even those who dedicate their lives to it, please realize a few things first.

First of all, people whose marriages didn't work out keep coming here to post because this is where their support system is - for some of us here it is our ONLY support system. I'm glad you took the step to air your true feelings, but I think you got some of the reactions you did because of the strong bonds with the method and between the posters here. It's the only hope some of our big family has. We all draw something positve from at least trying or seeing others try, even if the desired results aren't coming out just perfectly.

Secondly, you see what you look for. Look harder, Bunny. There are success stories all around of varying measure. Like Bernzini said, it depends on what you consider success. I think any positive ground gained can at least count towards a success, don't you?

Mine is a success story (even to your standards I'm sure ), but to read some of my rants you might not know it! My H and I (well, really it was me mostly) have had it out on this board! When I get into my negative modes, it seems like NOTHING is right. Poeple come here, like me, when they are having a rotten day all the time. And some of us here are still success stories in the making.

I have, in contrast posted numerous positive words regarding my marriage and my love for my H, etc. I'd post more, but I come here and see all the sad 'faces' of my friends and I end up saving the best of what I have to say to those, like you, who seem to be losing all hope. It's not that I push this or any 'method' but my point is to simply offer hope that yes, there is hope.

So, Bunny, maybe this gameplan isn't working out for you. Personally, my H and I have simply used it as a guideline for our own behavior and to help us figure things and each other's actions out a little better. Truthfully, we didn't adhere to every last little word written in the books. (Although some people truly NEED to, just to get thru it all.) Perhaps if you look at the methods as more of an outline for the course of action thru this affair and take from it what you know or think will help, that would benefit you more. For example, if making all the sacrifices in say, Plan A seem to you like you are giving up way too much of yourself, then do what your heart of hearts is telling you. Only you, not anyone here can make the determination that your marriage is worth that kind of effort or not (and some just aren't!)

In the end, no matter how things turn up, you will still have yourself to face - and you will want to know you did things in the best possible way YOU could. And you can feel this way regardless of what your H has or hasn't done on his own behalf for the sake of the marriage.

Finally, but most impotantly, you have to remember that everyone's situations are unique - even tho they bear commonalities and what has worked for one hasn't necessarily worked for all. But the steps found here have helped nearly every single one of us in some way. It's not designed or intended to be a 'miracle cure' type of scheme. Success, with ANY complex goal you aspire to will be attained with perseverence and dedication. There are no easy ways or guarantees for this one, EB.

You are nearing the end of your rope. I hope in my heart that you keep trying until something good starts happening or until you can't anymore. Either way, we will be here to support you, and will do so gladly.

Khyra

PS If there is more you'd like to talk about and don't feel comfortable here, please feel free to e-mail me - traumangel@yahoo.com

PSPS Sorry for any typos I missed, it's hard to type with a baby sleepin on your chest
.

posted August 29, 2000 06:35 PM            

Good to see you back girlfriend! You sound healthy. Genuinely.

EB, you see, in my eyes, Sheryl's is a story of success even tho the marriage failed. She has been able to proceed with moving on with her life, and I'll bet she's a lot happier (and saner) most of the time now. She did everything she could and still come out alive in the end.

Sheryl, why would anyone flame you for dating??? You aren't doing anything wrong, at least not in my eyes! I'm proud of and for you and I'm glad you are living your life, you really needed to. Congrats, and best of luck... and thanks again for all the help you have given me.

posted August 29, 2000 08:11 PM            

heartache,

why did you delete your post?

fairydust,

Good luck as you work to rebuild your marriage. I'm glad you still lurk. Thank you.

suse,

You seem very nice and genuine. I hope your marriage continues to flourish. Just one question. When you say that you're "enjoying the fruits of all our hard work. We're having more fun, laughing more, teasing more, talking more, more , than we ever have." Do you mean that you are honestly truly successful and that your affairs will never get in the way again? Not that they will ever be forgotten, I think everyone here agrees about that. But, how did you let the pain go?

Nice ramble, by the way.

K,

Re: Why is "being happy in a sexless marriage" sad to you?

Because sex is a wonderful part of marriage and your wife is able to have it but won't. Is that not sad?

Re: So, I'm much happier in my marriage now than I was three years ago. Proof that this stuff works. Proof that it is "successful". And as others have intonated, proof that it can work (perhaps not to perfection) if only one spouse is practicing the philosophy.

Well, alright K. If you are HONESTLY HAPPY, then who am I to quibble.

wasstubborn,

Re: The words "success" "failure" "betrayer" and "betrayed" have always bothered me.
1. They are labels.
2. They describe black and white. Absolutes. At least in my mind.

I only use the words because this site promotes them. I agree with what you're saying, by the way.

Re: I will probably never call me or my marriage a success. It is a work in progress. Plan A is a process. A work in progress.

I hope you can one day.

Re: Our marriage is far from perfect. I am far from perfect. I am not a success. I am a woman who has learned a huge amount from this forum and Dr. Harley's teachings. A woman who loves her H enough to work through this with him.

I really respect this about you.

I am sorry for your pain.

periwinkle,

Re: Plan A is my new way of life.

That's what I gather from what I'm reading. I guess it's about making YOURSELF better, not the marriage.

Re: It sounds as though your pain has turned into bitterness. There's a book called "Betrayal's Baby" by Bunny Wilson (I think that is the author's name) that is helpful in getting past bitterness.

Thank you for the referral.

God bless you too!

Carolina Belle,

Re: Nothing excuses what my H has done. NOTHING! But let's face it, I've broken my vows too. Either Lostva or Lor made a good point in saying that there during the wedding, there was no more emphasis made on the vow that he broke than there was on the ones that I broke.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I will not equate an affair with doing a LB of some kind. An affair stands on it's own as cruelty. Remember, I've been on both sides, and I know.

Re:Also, EB, keep in mind that for the most part, you are seeing the absolute worst parts of marriages in this room.

Yes, this makes sense.

Re: Even Dr. Harley himself says that adultery is the most selfish, thoughtless act a person can commit.

I agree with Harley on this.

F A,

I owe you a world of thanks. You made my day today! Thank you. Thank you for your kindhearted thoughtful and defensive (!!) replies.

Of course, I agree with all that you said. I truly felt attacked, esp. with one poster, and another has now erased her post, maybe because she was afraid of the same. Now THAT'S sad!

Re: So before you give up on your marriage, give these principles your best shot, if it is simply too much for you to handle, or you feel that there is simply too much to overcome, then part with your spouse and move forward with your life.

I am thinking about it all, quite honestly.

You obviously thought a lot about what people were writing. You took a lot of care in your responses.

You made me cry at work. That's not such a good thing <grin> but I appreciated it.

Monen,

I am very sorry for our shared pain.

Re: Some people can be hurt very badly, but have something in their emotional make-up which allows them to recover and bounce back within a reasonable amount of time. Others can have very small things happen to them, and they will feel the pain of it and have a hard time letting go for AGES.

Oh gosh, this is so TRUE!!! Very good insight.

Re: your remark to K "Not to sound crass, but your wife is a lucky woman. If I am not in the mood to have sex with my H, I am automatically unattracted to him, don't love him, think he is inadequate, and MUST be thinking about another man. Let's just say this ruins MORE than 10% of our marriage."

Yes, I agree with this too!

ecurb1,

I wish you must happiness and that you can indeed put your marriage back together.

You sound like a very good man.

Catplay,

I think I answered you fully as the day went on. I was very hurt by what you were saying. I am not coldhearted, just a regular person who took a chance and posted what I felt. I'm sorry it offended you.

new_beginning,

K later says something, and so does Khyra about your being a success even though your marriage is over. I don't really agree, but you do sound happy. I want that too. Best of luck to you and the new man. I mean that truly.

Carolina Belle,

Re: NOTHING EXCUSES AN AFFAIR!!! It is purely selfish, and I don't care WHAT a spouse does. Even if it's a revenge affair, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT.

YES, YES, YES.

Re: For you, EB, leaving is probably the best thing that you can do. But PLEASE get some counseling for yourself. I do agree w/Catplay in the sense that your behavior did play a role in putting your marriage in the condition it's in. Don't get me wrong - like I said, that does not justify him having an affair.

I plan to get counseling. I agree with catplay on that ONE point too. I helped to ruin the marriage.
Lor (Lor),

I know you believe and live this.

You didn't attack me at all.

I wish you a happy marriage this time around, with the same husband you have loved all along.

Re: But I know without a shadow of a doubt that my H's Plan A at that point brought me back to the point of reconciliation

That's wonderful, and I agree he was successful in his plan a efforts.

crazy or what?,

That's awful about your h thinking that you were just doing it to be better than OW#1.

I'm sorry for your pain, and I will continue thinking about what I need to do.

WorthItForEternity,

Re: You have to be honest with yourself. Do you really want a healthy, happy marriage with this person, or do you just want revenge? Not making any personal judgements, but I think that a lot of us BS fall into that trap.

Well, I didn't want revenge. I wanted to feel loved. I know what I did was wrong.

Re: Does it mean you can't do whatever you want whenever you want? Uh-huh. Yes, you will not be able to LB, vent angry feelings, etc. Hello, that's life.

I know that's life. I never said I wanted to vent ugly feelings did I? You all don't know
what I did to save my marriage, do you? Just because I vent and write here, trying to say how I feel, doesn't mean I ripped into my h day in and day out. Or frankly, even ever. I kept my mouth shut for the most part. I'm told that we did "protective lying". It doesn't work very well, but we didn't LB or fight really.

Re: You say you are not willing to protect your spouse from these angry outbursts.

When did I say this?

Re: Personally, I have to say my H & I are a success story. He cheated (PA only), yet was still very much in love with me.

How can someone be "very much in love" and cheat? Was it a one night stand? Sorry if that sounds crass. Again, I'm trying to learn.

Still Praying,

Thank you for clarifying what you said earlier.

Re: Also, it's unfortunate to hear that your's is over. You need to do what makes you happy in life. You obviously know better than us what kind of person he is, and whether or not he would ever be trustworthy again.

Thank you.

Re: As for flaming you, I guess I was a little taken back by the blanket statements that I perceived you making. I was trying to get you to ask yourself some questions, and of course I had no idea of who you are or what you've been through or tried.

That's true.

Re: Now, so that I can get flamed. I firmly believe that other than parent/child parent/stepchild sexual abuse, and possibly a marriage that was started because of a pregnency instead of love, every marriage can be saved.

I don't believe that AT ALL.

Nellie1,

I've read your posts and am sorry for your pain. I hope that things are going better for you. But it sounds like no, and I am sorry to hear that.

You are a good mom to those kids and that's what really matters now.

alias,

I looked up those posts you mentioned and while they're nice, it really shows a handful of "success stories" out of thousands of people.

If you'd like to chat by email, let me know.

Thank you for the offer of eamil. I will think about that.

Khyra,

Thank you for saying you see my pain. Not everyone else does. They see me as cold when in fact I am just hurting like everyone else here.

I agree about this being a support system - for SOME, not all.

Re: Mine is a success story (even to your standards I'm sure ), but to read some of my rants you might not know it!

I know what you mean. Yes, SO FAR you are a success story and I hope it continues that way.

Thank you too for the email address. I'll let you know if I need to talk.