posted August 29, 2000 08:51 PM            

I must say that I applaud you. You have had your work cut out for you, and I am amazed that you are able to answer so many posts.

I hope that you also realize that nothing that I said was meant to be a personal attack on you, but obviously differing opinions help everyone to see things from a different perspective.

Take care.

posted August 29, 2000 09:01 PM            

I read through your original post and picked up some very negative vibes and I guess I read into them wrong. Guilty!

I didn't want you to go off on a tangent, personally attacking those who have chosen a difficult road for whatever reason they have to do so... Someone you mentioned has a sexless marriage... this is of their own choosing and many people in love or not have a sexless marriage for various reasons. Sex does not make a happy marriage, it makes a happy marriage better.

This is were I get off. I wish you the best, whichever route you take in your life.

posted August 29, 2000 09:02 PM            

Thanks for the super-duper warm thoughts!!

Yeah, can't seem to completely stay away... and I'm sooooooooooooooooo embarrassed!! Oh well... I'm a dork.

Big HUGS to you Khyra!!

Okay EB, no I don't see myself as a success story by any stretch of the imagination, but I am S-L-O-W-L-Y healing, and in my book I am becoming successful. I do still care about my stbx, and that's another good thing I think. I'm gonna be okay, and that's all ANY of us wants, right?

posted August 29, 2000 09:08 PM            

I must be in some other "place" finally, because I don't find myself getting annoyed at any of the opinions. I guess that's good.

You know, EB, I'm kindof at a similar place...with regards to my marraige which seems to be rapidly falling apart. My H has never had an another affair though. In fact, up until last NOve. He was a very caring, loving, devoted h and dad.

I'm still actually wondering what exactly happened to him..... But I'm still taking care of me! I guess that's my Plan A.

I particularly found Suse's response to hit close to home.

To me, what it comes down to, is that an affair is just like any other "thing" (drugs, alcohol, work, spending, etc) that we use to make ourselves feel better. Therefore, along with the needs, many of the WS's need to figure out what that thing is that's missing inside of them.....first and foremost!!! I see this as my H's difficulty. And I do not think it is the OP that is the problem...though I think he thinks I do....she is just the complicating factor. It is how he "feels about himself" with her...... But I can't tell him that.

Therefore, all that said it takes two, hit the nail on the head.

I'm sorry for all of us that have not had the other half even meet us on the bottom step.....

But I still find a lot of solice here, for what has pretty much been h*** on earth. NO one could ever understand what "this" is all about unless you are living it!!! as we are.

And I have come a long way in my thinking...and gotton myself to a better place than I was. I have definatly come to a better realization about myself and my behaviors, and hey, even if it makes me a better parent..... that's enough!!!

posted August 29, 2000 09:14 PM            

Hanging out for a few more minutes after my mammoth posting. Thanks for the applause.

Re: I hope that you also realize that nothing that I said was meant to be a personal attack on you, but obviously differing opinions help everyone to see things from a different perspective.

I do realize that now, but it did sting. But I guess that's the nature of the beast around here were pain abounds.

No problem and I do understand and appreciate different perspectives.

Catplay,

Re: I did not intentionally attack you nor intend to appear thoughtless about your problems.

Okay, well thank you.

Re: Someone you mentioned has a sexless marriage... this is of their own choosing and many people in love or not have a sexless marriage for various reasons. Sex does not make a happy marriage, it makes a happy marriage better.

There are, by the way several on this board in the same boat as K, who posted on this thread, and in ALL cases, IT IS NOT OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING. They want it. I do agree that it makes a happy marriage better, but in the case of healthy people who are using sex as a weapon or maybe say they cannot psychologically do it with their spouse - that is TERRIBLE, and I don't agree at all that it is a personal choice.

Don't feel like you have to leave because we don't agree. It really is okay to agree to disagree.

new_beginning,

That's nice that you get along with your stbx, but it doesn't repair your marriage, which you wanted. I do wish you success in your life and with the new person too.

Re: I'm gonna be okay, and that's all ANY of us wants, right?

Yes, that's all any of us wants. I agree.

EB

posted August 29, 2000 09:25 PM            

I just wanted to make a few quick points.

First of all I think K has been wonderfully honest to share the intimate details of his healing. A lot of folks here are in the same predicament and I'm sure it helps them to see that they are not alone. I guess I think of it this way...if you had the most wonderful marriage in the world, the most perfect husband and he got hit by a car and could not perform sexually, would you divorce him? It's called unconditional love.

I think it's easiest to feel it for our children. I have teenagers and while I have been pretty lucky so far with them, they could really really mess up at any time. Will I still love them. Oh yeah, you'd better believe it. With all of my heart. I might not agree with what they did, but it would certainly not change my feelings for them.

I hope you don't take this comment as a negative one. Believe me, I do know the pain...we all do here. It's the worst thing I've ever gone through. I don't know what success really means, but adopting the MB principles into my life has made me feel a bit more successful. It gives me a plan, something I can do...and it has helped me feel more in control during a time in my life that is not in control.

I guess the analagies of the wounds and the healing process is pretty right on. I'm sure there will always be a scar...but it will be there whether H and I are together or not. Yep, he put it there, but I placed a few unsightly nicks into his psyche too over the last 20 or so years.

So, please give some thought to how to help yourself and heal. Your H won't do it for you. I've learned that it's time to grow up and if I have to stand on my own two feet from now on...I can do it. If H is going to want to heal this marriage with me...better yet.

Great post eb.

posted August 29, 2000 09:39 PM            

And you're so right about K! Poor fool thinks he's a "success". You sure straightened him out!

Hope to see ya soon!
Lou

posted August 29, 2000 09:56 PM            

please...moderator...remove the post from middleman.

posted August 29, 2000 10:15 PM            

Just a word to some friends...

K.. thanks for coming back...
...now I can go into semi-retirement

~Sheryl... I didn't catch you...
...and I never judge you...
...my love goes out to you and all in pain...
...honest...

--------------------------------------------

OK...

If you can't/won't Plan A for life...
then... that means...
You can't/won't keep to The Rule of Protection:[/b] Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness...for life and...
You can't/won't keep to The Rule of Care:[/b] Meet your spouse's most important Emotional Needs...for life.

If I were to get married (again as it were) and I didn't believe that I would strive(even if I falter) for these...
...WHY WOULD/SHOULD I GET MARRIED?!?!
...maybe money, maybe sex, maybe affection, maybe something else... (I hope not)

Aren't the ideas of care and protection... essential elements of a marriage?!

If you don't commit to these "rules"...
...please tell why you would/should/could marry!

If...
You can't/won't keep to The Rule of Time:[/b] Take time to give your spouse undivided attention....for life and...
You can't/won't keep to The Rule of Honesty:[/b] Be totally open and honest with your spouse....for life....

Aren't the ideas of time and honesty... essential elements of a marriage?!

If you don't commit to these "rules"...
...please tell why you would/should/could marry!

Does not the idea of marital negotiation The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)... cut to the core of what needs to be learned to "care" for, to "protect", to "be honest", to "give time"... for the one you marry?!

To claim that "these" don't work...
...is to claim that these elements (taken together or individually) are not relevant to marriage.

If it is a specific issue of success as defined as...

1. the opposite of "failure"...

quote:

---

Failure is this: a marriage that is filled with pain, or held together by a sense of loyalty ONLY. Staying together for the children is failure, just as staying together for money, or convenience is. I don't believe that is a marriage.

---

quote:

---

The real success seems to come from detaching ourselves from the beliefs that we cling onto regarding this life and the people in it and having faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in the people around us, and faith in God's word.

---

As far as the failure goes...
...pain ...lack of loyality ... children/money ...convenience
are just excuses to avoid applying the rules...
Not the failures themselves.

As far as the (real) success...
...having faith...
...yep... ..you said it...
...having faith...
..."...in God's word..."...
(The two shall become one...
...check out a recent post of mine...here)

If the theme of loving and forgiving don't run through "faith"...
...where can there be a (real) "success"?

Is success the restoration of just the marriage?...
...if it is...
...faith is incomplete.

If success is the restoration of faith?...
...you have found the narrow path...
...we all seek it...
...we all stumble and fall on it...
...we all need to repent and forgive...
...we all need it...
...for honest (real) success.

posted August 30, 2000 12:12 AM            

Okay, FIRST AND FOREMOST, I am not flaming K or trying to make fun of him or his situation. Remember, he is not the only one to have this situation in his marriage. Look around, there are others. While I don't think he's a success and have gone on record with that, I also don't think he himself or his wife is a fool. So, then,

Middleman,

Thank you for the compliment, but it isn't quite warranted in the way that you wrote.

tootrusting,

Thank you for continuing to come back and think on this. I know you say I didn't have to reply, but I'm here, so what the heck, right?

allison,

Thank you for dropping by too.

Re: First of all I think K has been wonderfully honest to share the intimate details of his healing. A lot of folks here are in the same predicament and I'm sure it helps them to see that they are not alone. I guess I think of it this way...if you had the most wonderful marriage in the world, the most perfect husband and he got hit by a car and could not perform sexually, would you divorce him? It's called unconditional love.

How to say this? K, his wife, and others in this situation CAN PERFORM SEXUALLY, and that is precisly why I get so upset about it. It's a whole other matter if there is injury, etc. How did this turn into a thread about K and his lack of sex? This obviously touches a chord with many.

I will work on healing me, and thank you for the response.

NSR,

You are a spiritual and caring man, that is obvious. Thank you for the care you took in your reply.

I don't believe the MB concepts save most marriages. That doesn't mean there isn't good in them, or that there aren't some things about them that heal certain aspects of marriage. For example, the idea of the four rules of protection that you mention. Yes, in ALL relationships, but mostly a marriage relationship, they should be used. Two people in the beginning of a relationship would naturally use them. Take new_beginning, who as K says will use what she learned here in her new relationship. She won't even have to think about it, she'll do it naturally because of the new love. It's when it gets older, and one begins to fade, or become human, or flirt, smile at someone, spend money they shuoldn't, or god forbid cheat. Then you'll really see what the relationship is made of. That's the reality. And frankly, THAT'S what everyone here is dealing with. Reality. I just said the words of my reality, and I think some people are afraid that I might be right.

posted August 30, 2000 12:18 AM            

Hi Jim, and thanks for not noticing me!

Now I'm being used as a template for what it means to follow/not follow the 4 Rules. Hmmm... not a good idea EB. I use the rules even with my stbx now, which is why we still get along pretty well, actually. As a matter of fact, I use them with everyone, because it is the 'right thing' to do I guess. Yes, with the new man I use them, and yes, it is so easy since we are in a blossoming love affair (god good, I hate to use that word, but can think of no other! ). But, I will TRY to remember to use them ALWAYS because this man, as you and everyone else here, DESERVES IT as a human being that I care about. Am I making sense?

One wonders!!

Take care, Sheryl

posted August 30, 2000 03:35 AM            

I can think of no better way to try to save a marriage... than by applying the "restoration" of faith.

...It is from your definition of real success... "(it is) in... having faith."

If your statement "I don't believe the MB concepts save most marriages"...
...is really meaning to say "I don't believe the (applying) MB concepts will result in the restoration of most marriages"...

...I agree...

The turning away from a marriage through infidelity (or anything else) is a result of our own free will... to goes directly in the face of "faith"...
...and even more so... it becomes easy to do in a society that glorifies "self" above faith.

...since you can do nothing to transplant the human mind... alter thought patterns... and illogic... or eliminate what causes us to "sin"... there is no "plan" that guarantees marital restoration.

...to search for such a plan is to look for a "fountain of youth"....

...a truly futile search!

That's why the MB "plans" are a success...
They seek out, under the guise of self help, ...a tool to recover faith.

If the marriage is recovered... great.

If not... you have a healthier relationship with God and your fellow man...

...that's much better than just a "restored marriage".

posted August 30, 2000 06:31 AM            

But first, hugs to NB!

If the definition of success being used here is 'saving your marriage', then perhaps EB is right.

We chose another definition. In counseling we both looked at the affair and agreed that it had, essentially, put the marriage in a blender. The old promises made by idealistic twentysomethings were gone in a whirl of sharp blades...poof. We couldn't save THAT marriage.

We also agreed that the old marriage wasn't anything we wanted to bring back. Then, it was up to me, the BS, to decide if I wanted to let this person stay in my life. I let him know that I would consider it, IF he was willing to change, as I was.

Initially, we decided to "see if we can work it out for the sake of the kids". I believe that many people stop here in their recovery and wind up bitter for years and years (my parents 'stuck it out' for 38 yrs.!).

We didn't want a lifetime where we just survived. My h. pointed out that he had an affair to try to bring some happiness to his life (he also agreed that this failed to do that) and if we stayed unhappy together, it could happen again, or I might stray (emotionally).

So, our mutual goal was to see if we could be happy AND married to each other.

I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes this goal cannot be reached. New Beginning has demonstrated how you can us MB principles and then decide that it's time to end the marriage.

The point is, if you don't give Plan A/B a sincere try, I think you leave yourself open to regret for the rest of your life. If you DO use the principles, the outcome may be the same, but you know that you did everything you could to make it work. You learn how to love people in other relationships. And you can always be proud of yourself for being able to grow and change.

I think we will 'succeed', but if we should divorce someday, I will always know that I gave my best to this relationship. I will hold my head high, like many here who do divorce. They are successes, because they tried everything.

posted August 30, 2000 07:11 AM            

quote:

---

This stuff doesn't work.

---

You have to take responsibility for yourself, your actions and the results of your actions on others. There are relatively few, if any, "experts", who would not agree that the BS had their own part in contributing to the onset of an affair. You, yourself made contributions to the bad place your marriage is in today. You didn't cause the affair and are not responsible for that, but you are responsible in part for where your marriage ended up. It's up to you to acknowledge that and find ways to not repeat, whether in this marriage or another relationship. It doesn't play out very well that you went and had an EA when you suspected your husband was unfaithful. What if he hadn't been??? You are not the only one who has thought of a "revenge" affair. A lot of us have, it's just that we were strong enough in our convictions of what a marriage should be to NOT do it.

I agree with K, you definitely need counselling. You are here, which is a giant first step.

You have said many, many times that "plan A is nice", but can you keep it up forever. You had better be able to if you ever want to have any fulfilling relationships. Plan A is not about "bringing the WS home". Fortunately, it can have that result, but it is really about you and how you treat others, and that means "everyone", not just a spouse. Please take to heart what my dear, dear friend Sheryl(new_beginning) said to you:

quote:

---

As a matter of fact, I use them with everyone, because it is the 'right thing' to do I guess.

---

I am definitely not perfect. I have been Plan Aing for almost a year and a half now. It has been very, very hard and I have had this tendency to LB every two or three weeks. But, I have seen a radical change in myself and others have noticed. No matter what you think, Plan A is the reason my W is still with me. It's also the reason she never moved out or took up with OM in any steady fashion. Our marriage is certainly not a "success" story. Probably never will be and, in fact, might not last much longer. However, I am a much better person because of Plan A. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Harley "zealot". I realized early on that Plan B would never have worked one iota in restoring my marriage if it had become necessary. The thing to remember is that these various "plans" are for you, not your WS.

I agree with Allison, this is a great post and I thank you for getting it started. I sure hope that the responses here really make you think and re-evaluate your life. Your marriage may be over, but you can follow the advice you have received here and your next relationship could be everything you ever wished for.

Jim, this is definitely one for the "Notable Posts" list.....

Take care EB and hugs to you....

--DeWayne--

posted August 30, 2000 08:30 AM            

Just a note here---you mention that my wife can "perform". That's really not true. When we've tried to work on sexual intimacy, it basically throws her into a panic attack. As much as I love sex---it's not an ideal situation when your partner is seizing up, sobbing uncontrollably, or paralyzed with fear. You're correct in that there's no physical barrier towards sex---but there is an emotional barrier right now. And unfortunately, that also can spill into "affection", because our past history had affection often leading to sex.

This is where I think you have a very "rigid" view of the issues (black and white). Using my allegory about earning potential---this sexual dysfunction would be similar to me losing my job. If I did, would I expect my wife to divorce me?? No. But what if I lost my job and didn't immediately go about finding a new one---would that cause conflict in my marriage?? Certainly. If you were on the receiving end of the conflict---what would you do? Divorce?? Again, not likely, and certainly not as a first choice. Would you "lovebust"? This would be a natural reaction---make demands, use disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts, punish this "wrong" behavior. But typically, that response doesn't work in the effort to "force" the person to the desired action, and it clearly doesn't build love.

So, given that divorce and punishment aren't the ways to go---how do you go about "fixing" a problem that might not be your responsibility? By creating an atmosphere in which the change in the other person is possible, and is advantageous for them. That may seem like capitulation to selfish desires---but love is essentially a selfish process. No matter how much stuff is spouted about "agape" love, it doesn't support a long-term marriage. Love is selfish---and even for those people who are "agape" believers, their one wish is TO BE LOVED as they love their spouse (which is selfish, by definition).

Once you get around the way our popular culture has idealized love and marriage, and delve into the workings---you can start using these principles as tools. Love is a process. Not magic, not chemistry, not predestined. It's a process---just like baking a cake. The bottom line is if you picked some guy out of a lineup, and you both followed the "four rules" together, you would have a happy marriage until "death do us part".

In the case of my wife and I, Steve Harley helped me with my marital behaviors, and in instituting "Plan A and B". And it was successful, in that when the affair ended, my wife had hope for our marriage. Our efforts in following the four rules have built our marriage up considerably---I could list tons of details, but suffice it to say we no longer fight with each other, we're much better with the children, we're much more considerate to each other's feelings, and we are much "happier" or "loving" in our interactions.

But we're not head over heels in romantic love yet. And that's becuase we're not following the 4 rules perfectly. Plain and simple. But again, we're making strides towards this---our marriage didn't break down in the course of a month---it was four years of pretty serious deterioration. And it's going to be a process to restore it. The great news is that we're both on board with the effort---so much so that my wife has started counseling to work on her emotional issues with intimacy and sex. These are problems that have solutions---and the efforts that we've made using these principles to restore our marriage to this point have finally given my wife the comfort and security to tackle what is admittedly for her a horrible and painful problem.

Again, these are the reasons I think these principles work. They're pretty easy to follow when the marriage isn't torn up---my newlywed brother and his wife received a copy of "The four Gifts of Love" from us. That's the time to learn and practice this stuff. But it can save marriages from the depths of problems. Not every time. But often enough, and certainly better than any other "affair approaches" that I've seen. I've been here nearly longer than anyone else, and I've seen plenty of these examples.

FA said something to you that seems very common-sense, but I think is tremendously misleading, and very often wrong

quote:

---

You know what is best for you...

---

I think often when you deal with this type of emotional trauma, you don't have a clue to what is best for you. Or how to make and execute a plan for "what is best". I think that this is very clear---most marriages don't survive this type of trauma, but often spouses are filled with regret for divorces down the road.

When I faced my wife's affair, the one brilliant thing I did was to say "I don't have a clue, and if I manage this on my own, I'm very likely to fail." Among the stuff I found in my first few days of research was the MB site. There was no forum at the time (a blessing, I think). I read this stuff, and although some of it was completely opposite of common opinion, it made sense. And knowing that I would need help, the next brilliant move I made was to start counseling with Steve (back in the old days, when he was "cheap and easy" [to get ahold of]).