posted August 30, 2000 04:35 PM            

Still Trying, I just wanted to tell you I think your post was wonderful. You hit on a lot of points that touched me deeply - I was the first betrayer in my marriage (gulp-16 yrs ago when I was MUCH younger - and dumber!). My deep shame lingered for years, further hurting our relationship as I pushed my H away. I was very moved by how you have tried and succeeded in valuing your W as a person. I *know* she needed this from you, and that it helped her healing; what you may not have fully realized is that it would "come around" and benefit you as well... this attitude is a wonderful gift to her. Congratulations.

I'd also like to add that by the time I found this website, I had dealt with my own long-lived infidelity, and just found out about my H's brief one (internet thing that went 'real'). I'd done a ton of reading over the years, trying to make sense of my own situation and it's aftermath (emotional fallout up the wazoo!) - but to me, the Harleys have nailed the dynamics of infidelity better than anyone. And having been on both ends of the stick by this time, I also thought that their methods made the most sense, and were most likely to give positive results.

Again - will it work *every* time if it's followed like a recipe? No. There are 'way too many variables. But I do believe it's a *best shot*. It also tries to preserve the dignity of both partners at a very undignified time.

Next, I know first-hand the emotional devastation - and it's impact on one's sex life - that a repentant betrayer feels. While my situation was never as severe as K's wife's, it was difficult and unpleasant enough. It *can* be worked through... it takes time and work and patience and love... exactly what K & his W are giving it. *Please* don't confuse his willingness to be patient about it with weakness, or with 'settling'. Folks - it took Dunc & I some 14 years to work *everything* out. It happened in fits and starts, in good times and bad. Our marriage today is deep and rich and *powerful*. And FUN!!!!! And I'm grateful every single day that we stuck it out. We are both deeply happy.

So a request: please lay off K. Those who don't know his entire story would be amazed at what he has been through and what he has 'pulled out of the fire' in his own marriage. He *is* a devoted disciple of "The Method", and with good reason - it saved a disaster. I have known K to be wise, strong, gentle, and non-confrontational. He has been generous with his time here *long* after he needed to be here. So if he sounds a *tiny* bit preachy about this - it is because he cares about you all & wants to help.

(Stepping down off my soapbox now. K, I hope I haven't embarrassed you to death).

TTFN!

posted August 30, 2000 05:07 PM            

You did embarass me to death...

But seriously, I don't feel "attacked", it's perfectly fine to wonder how great a marriage could really be if you've been celibate for three years. Four years ago, I'd have had the same opinions.

I would like to apologize to FA and eb and anyone else who is put off by my 'all-knowing' bluntness. I think that I used to post much more empathetically, and try to slowly convince people to the value of this methodology. I tend to do it much more brusquely now---I've got less time available for this, and I do get tired of typing the same stuff over and over for two years.

One thing both Steve and Jennifer told me was that counseling with their Dad at this stage in his career would be much like listening to me---it's "here's the method, this is why it works. If you do it, you'll be in love. If you don't, you won't."

Real cut-to-the-chase stuff. But Steve and Jennifer will tell you also, through their huge body of experience in counseling, if you do this stuff the way it's supposed to be done, it will work. Your "success" may vary. Chris or Jim may not be "successful" in keeping their marriages together. But they will be much better off emotionally. And for countless others, this has worked in saving the marriage.

I realize that some people don't want to be told what to do. Especially when they're not sure. But again, I don't know anyone who's really DONE the MarriageBuilder's program who hasn't been very glad that they have. And honestly, I think there would be very few (almost 0) people who wouldn't benefit. So when I come across as "shut up and try it"---I'm doing this out of a deep desire to see healing in people who are hurting.

I get no profits. I don't need a fan club. I have no desire to be a MB site deity. I just want to see people spared as much of this pain as possible.

posted August 30, 2000 05:11 PM            

For what it's worth, here's my take on this:

(1) This stuff works for some.
(2) It doesn't work for others.
(3) Saying that marriages can't survive infidelity is a crock of bull---t. Every marriage is different, just like every person is different. Some marriages will survive it and some won't. I tend to believe that those who REALLY want it, and will do whatever it takes to GET it, will survive more often.
(4) None of us can do a "perfect" Plan A, but those who conform closest to perfection probably see a higher success rate.

That being said, I think somebody earlier hit it RIGHT on the head (I thin it was Lori):

"Success" and "failure" are labels that don't really fit here. You can successfully apply the Marriage Builders formula and still have a failed marriage. I think TRUE success is when you know you've done your best, and that you've given it all you can. THAT is success because even if your marriage fails, YOU haven't. If you've done it correctly, YOU can walk away from a broken marriage with a fully restored sense of self-worth, and a secure knowledge that you don't NEED your WS to be happy. You will still ache. You will still feel emptiness, but you'll know that YOUR efforts helped you find an inner strength. That is success in my book.

If you equate success with restoring your marriage to where it was before the affair, then you're right -- there can be no success, because you'll never get back what you had. I think there are MANY here, including Petunia and myself (Dunc & Suse also come to mind), who are examples that it can be even BETTER than before.

So, for what that's worth, I hope we all take a long hard look at what "success" and "failure" really mean to us. But, again, perhaps the problems are being caused by overgeneralizations.

Just my 2 cents.

------------------
/// Lone Star * ///

P.S. Hi, Suse! Nice to see you again! Where's Duncky?

posted August 30, 2000 08:32 PM            

K,

You are truly the man. I have been here for well over a year and do know most of your story. I don't believe I could have endured what you have. Just couldn't do it.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your opinions.

The newer folks may not believe in the "principles", but they are common sense and do work if applied.

I'm looking forward to my next M and will definately enjoy the benefits of MB.

posted August 30, 2000 10:13 PM            

I have to admit, I kind of turned off to this thread, then decided to go back and read it systematically. (kind of didn't like the conflict that was going on here--I really hate meaness.)

See, I am glad that I have found this site to have people like you set an example for me.

As I mentioned earlier on in this thread, I forgave and forgot about infidelity in my first marriage--after I did exactly what is not to be done: I raged and revenged, let him have it, then figured we were even.

So, I know that even without following MB principles, you can have "sucess," if sucess is what you want to call it.

The infidelity in my second, cherished marriage has brought about the end of it, I fear. Yet what I have learned through MB, and how I have grown as a person, spiritually and in temperment, could not have come any other way. So, yes, I figure that I have gained a lot from this that I couldn't otherwise.

And as Medic sez, my next marriage will be wonderful, if indeed there is a next marriage, because now I know what I must do to make it so.

But my kudos to you: you are a rare jewel of a man and I know that you will have a happy life ahead of you. Your little kids will grow up cherishing you.

posted August 30, 2000 11:04 PM            

As far as what I see as "success" - yes, I think that a saved, good, sexual marriage is a success. "Failure" to me is not having a marriage anymore.

I do appreciate what everyone is saying about their views of success and failure and all the labels we put on stuff around here. I think that this thread was good, and I thank each of you for your thoughts.

Thanks again for the replies. I bet this will die pretty soon. I've never seen this many replies before so I must have touched a nerve. It's good to think!

posted August 31, 2000 11:16 AM            

I am going to get a divorce. My h doesn't want to give up his OW, and at this point I don't care anymore. That's not true, I do care. But I can't fight for him anymore.

I appreciate what everyone has said, and I will never forget how wonderful you all are.

This is my last post.

Good luck to everyone who wants their marriage, which seems to be just about everyone except a few.

You are right. You are all successes as yourselves, with or without your spouses.

Bye, and thank you again for the good discussion.