posted May 13, 2000 04:54 AM            

No sexual advances from her...not sure how I would play it. Actually was thinking about saying we should just talk or cuddle...maybe I'm being manipulative. Anyway, she never made the advance, so....:-( I think she is training me on the agreed frequency downshift to 1 time per week. I'm starting to wonder if I can live with one time per week, but that is a battle for another day.

Tonite when she said "ILY" I said that I believed her, but that a small part of her still had resentment or even hatred for me, and it was breaking my heart, and I needed to get it out and get it over and apologize and heal it. She denied this, said I was imagining it. When I reminded her that she had admitted putting up emotional walls over the past few years and withdrawing, she got more thoughtful. She said that she had been distancing herself because she thought I would eventually leave her due to differences in our personalities and interests (i.e.: her self-esteem issues), but that my recent behavior had convinced her that she was wrong, and that things were getting better.

I feel like a parched man standing with an empty cup at the foot of a valley waiting on a glacier.

So....how does one go from Withdrawal to Intimacy? Will I know it when it happens? Will an angel appear in the corner of the bedroom or something and give me the thumbs up? Will it take a big sign of vulnerability and trust from her? Are we on the track or do we need to get to counseling?

posted May 13, 2000 09:35 AM            

It was like trying to thaw a glacier.

When we would go somewhere with the OW and her family, the two of them would sit and whisper to each other during the performance (like they were on a date) but he acted like he was getting a root canal when we sat in the theater. This was back in the fall.

This love stuff is tough. Now we're in therapy. He says ILY but no passion, no desire, very little affection. It's a hard road.

posted May 13, 2000 09:42 AM            

You will know it is happening when she blows up, picks a really stupid fight, or just gets mad or resentful. But you WILL KNOW IT when it happens. And remember, it is a VERY GOOD SIGN. {Read "Give and Take," it explains better than I can.}

Shocked the h*!! out of me when I did it myself. About four or five weeks ago I made a(n unconscious) move out of withdrawal toward intimacy and the only sign was that I blew up about a silly thing, that I knew was coming, and had already mentally rehearsed a polite response for. Knocked me for a loop. Took about 2 hours before I realized that it was predicted by Dr. Harley bc the only way back from withdrawal to intimacy passes through conflict.

Even though forwarned is forarmed, and you should be able to dampen it to a very mild level, there is no skipping the stage.

When she does it, it will mean that she really cares again and is emotionally involved in the relationship with some kind of hope and expectation of outcome for her Taker.

One more caveat. YOU might do it too. Your Taker is going to get jealous of the full-court press of attention and affection. Once she is into intimacy, you will likely have a stage of conflict. Because right now, you are not truly in the state of intimacy with her yourself, all by yourself.

Get ready! Any time. Good luck!

posted May 13, 2000 11:31 AM            

I'm the one picking the fights, blowing up. Only time he gets passionate is to defend the OW when I trash her or attack their friendship. We'd been in withdrawal except for issues surrounding his friendship and contact with this "friend" for years.

But my anger is out of control, and I need to channel it, in order to not drive H further away. I pushed for months to get us into counseing, and could blow it out of the water if I'm not able to get a handle on my emotions. He's so afraid of conflict (and intimacy) that he's barely speaking in therapy, and therefore it's a struggle to keep him involved. Therapist and I wait him out, allowing the silence to work for us.

I phoned the MC to schedule a session to work on my anger and keep it from becoming lethal and destructive and therefore blowing a golden opportunity to rebuild.

posted May 13, 2000 01:18 PM            

You know you can't do Plan A in anger. At least not in expressive angry outbursts. Respect the withdrawal state. All anger does is push him away.

Think about your goal. What do you want in the long run? You can't change some one else, but you can change yourself, and their moves inevitably adjust as a consequence.

You can express your feelings and your limits in a respectful way. No need to tolerate the intolerable. Have you actually tried a good, clean Plan A? Read all of NSR's posts and essays on Plan A. He is the real in-the-trenches expert.

posted May 13, 2000 02:46 PM            

Okay. Other than a path roadmap that leads from I to C to W and back again, why is this a necessary stage? Does one only emerge from Withdrawal kicking and screaming? Is it a test of the patience or love of the partner?

I also think I have discovered a whole new EN with my W. I don't know whether it should be called Trust or Longevity or Faith in Forever, but our biggest holdback...her biggest holdback emotionally, is her belief (allegedly waning) that we are not compatible forever. She has boxed herself in emotionally because of that belief.

It is like "I'm not opening my heart to you, because I know we are fated to part"

Maybe this is where a joint conversion to Catholicism could help :-/

posted May 13, 2000 03:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike C2:
why is this a necessary stage? Does one only emerge from Withdrawal kicking and screaming? Is it a test of the patience or love of the partner?

---

Don't know why. Dr. Harley said it is so. And it happened to me out of the blue, so I do believe it. Maybe you will be lucky. But I think that is your roadsign that you are on the right path. Could be a test. Could be instinctive reaction to the unfairness of life. Could be anything. Does it matter?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike C2:

Maybe this is where a joint conversion to Catholicism could help :-/

---

Ask Bellevue!
Any joint conversion would certainly add a bond you do not now share.

You already know that polar opposites give each other the maximum opportunity for growth. And growth is always hard, sometimes very painful. Don't worry about getting to the end stage right this very minute. You are doing well. Baby steps. Don't worry. Be Happy! Else your discontent may rub off. As hers seems to have.

posted May 13, 2000 03:05 PM            

quote:

---

Other than a path roadmap that leads from I to C to W and back again, why is this a necessary stage? Does one only emerge from Withdrawal kicking and screaming? Is it a test of the patience or love of the partner?

---

When we are in the state of withdrawal we are not open to having our needs met. Once we regain some interest in reuniting we cross over to the state of conflict. This is where we open up and allow our lovebanks to be filled. The state of conflict is common in even healthy marriages. It does not have to be a battle zone. Learning to override our instincts and negotiate safely allows us to return to the state on intimacy much easier.

Harley recommends a minimum of a two-week vacation together as a booster shot to speed up the process of returning to the state of intimacy from a deep state of withdrawal.

------------------
Scott

posted May 13, 2000 04:57 PM            

quote:

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The state of conflict is common in even healthy marriages. It does not have to be a battle zone.

---

posted May 13, 2000 10:19 PM            

Well it matters to us analytical types :-)

Actually, someone provided the answer right below, and it was precisely what I had come up with during a long talk with the W tonite. You can't get to Intimacy until the EN issues that caused Withdrawal are thrashed out in Conflict.

Interestingly, many of our EN issues are out there on the table already. There hasn't been much nasty conflict, but if I reflect back over some of the hurtful things the W has said, maybe that was a healthy sign of conflict? <hopeful look>

I also had an interesting idea on the sexual aversion front. W approached offering lovemaking tonite, but asked that it could be of a short duration, as she was tired. <klaxon alarm> That was one of the signs of sexual aversion....making the act as quick as possible.

So I said that I didn't think she/we were ready for this, and that she didn't have to make love just to please me, that I loved her unconditionally, that I wanted her to get beyond sex as a duty. She looked genuinely sad, which tugged my heartstrings.(she is really cute, if I haven't mentioned it) She claimed she really wanted to make love, and argued the point, reminding me that Sexual Fulfillment is one of her top ENs. I hung tough, which was difficult, because my blood flow at this point had me looking like one of those bumper pool balls -- all stark white with a single bright red spot.

We talked for awhile in bed about MB stuff...sexual aversion, Intimacy/ Conflict/Withdrawal. She was genuinely interested. She said again she wanted to make love. I thought of an exercise that might work -- she was in charge. So we made love, but she called each action. She seemed to really like that :-)

It was pretty cool. :-) I think that is a good exercise for SA. It forces intimate communication, empowers the partner who may be SA, and, plus, you learn what turns your partner on, in case that has been lost in Withdrawal.