posted June 17, 2000 05:00 PM            

Now we are getting somewhere. TS and DT do you see what people are trying to say. I used the word rebuilt, but love can be developed, especially for someone you already like.

I have mentioned this already, but it is not uncommon for kidnap victims to become extremely emotionally attached to their kidnapers. Talk about a real strange thing. But as Kareena pointed out, the human potential is far larger than is commonly accepted. If this can happen, then love with some one you like, are married to and have children with is definitely possible.

However, what kind of love are you asking for TS? If it is the crazy, all emcompassing love of a teenager, then maybe not. If it is the love you see in long term marriages, probably so.

But to some extent it is a matter of risk. If you try with your spouse will you miss out on someone else. I realize that women are far more risk adverse than men especially in romance. It has always seemed odd to me that we, men, are always disparaged for our like of communications and feelings, and yet we take most of the risks in initiating romances. Oh Well, it does make life interesting.

So TS by the time you get to read this you will have heard some very interesting answers to your question.

I sure hope it helps you with you request for happiness.

God Bless,

posted June 18, 2000 07:41 PM            

JL,

You say you've been programming for over 30 years (I thought you said you were a scientist ). Then you know that it's not a good idea to jump into implementation before you have your requirements defined. ( Or do you work for Microsoft? ) I'm still defining my requirements. Implementation at this point would be ludicrous (of course, that's not to say I can't do some ptorotyping...).

You have asked me why I'm dragging my feet. Well, I am at least taking action. I am facing the issues I have and I'm trying to look at all the angles realistically.

Whay are you dragging your feet? You have been on MB for over a year, give lots of (mostly good) advice to people, yet you are afraid to talk to your own wife. The longer you let her withdraw, the more distant she will become. You know that. I think it's time YOU took some action.

quote:

---

Kissing and hugging someone, doesn't necessarily mean love, but it does mean care and a personal connection to that person.

---

Exactly - personal connection - I don't feel that with him. It would be fake.

DT

quote:

---

I want to do nice things but there's the fear that he might love me even more and I'm not sure I want that. That's where the fake comments are coming from when TS talks about wanting to be real.

---

YES! That is exactly right! I know my H loves me. He always does things to show me this. If I act loving to him, he will be MORE loving to me and I will feel MORE guilty for it. Because the feelings I have for him are so much less than those that he has for me.

CH,

quote:

---

Now put a melancholic with a phlegmatic or a choleric: "How can he be so unfeeling?" He just adjusts- to absolutely everything, and puts up with her moods better than any other temperament type precisely because he doesn't sit and brood, he manages, and he copes, and he keeps her level and moving, at the same time as she hates his lack of introspection (boring....)

---

Alright, where did you hide the video camera? You just described my H and I to a 'T'! How can I get him to be less boring?

Sifted and Karenna,

I found meaning in your posts that I can't quite identify yet. I will keep re-reading what you have said. Praying certainly can't hurt. I will give it a try.

quote:

---

Can it be that we can't necessarily express all the parts of who we are with everyone, or are we the ones limiting ourselves? Relationships involve the dynamics of two people. They are not one-sided. That is what makes them interesting, but at times also limiting. What do you think?

---

Very good questions! I'd like to hear opinions about this as well!

jmv,

Yes, I have decided to work on the marriage for at least a year and then I will re-evaluate whether enough progress has been made to continue. The time thing... we are working on it and discussing things. The dancing is somehting he is willing to try again, but the class he sigend up for was cancelled until fall, so time becomes a problem again. WE have been participating in church activities somewhat together. We usually sign up for different tasks that are needed for one function or another that is sponsored by the church, so while we are technically both helping out with the same function, we are not doing it together, because we're doing different tasks. (Different interests and time availability)

We have also gone out on occasion for dinner, movies, ice cream (these things are bad for the wieght issue, though). Going for a walk after dinner when the weather permits it, we're planning to go bike-riding on weekends (he just bought a bike).

As I said before, progress is being made, albeit slowly. And I do still have reservations about the whole thing because I'm so afraid of being stuck on the fence forever. As I said to JL earlier - not bad enough to leave, not good enough to stay.

Raskal,

It's funny. I gave that same advice to someone else a few months ago because she said that if she had just met her H that she could fall in live with him. I don't feel that way, and I think it would be very difficult for me to do (letting go of baggage being difficult for me to do in general - working on it in counseling). It is a good suggestion, though.

(BTW, Thanks for recommending this as a Notable!)

CH and jmv

RE: poets being nuts.

I have written my best poetry when I was my most nuts. There's something about being nuts that gives people that creative expression. I think people who aren't in some kind of torment can't tap into themselves deeply enough to be that creative. Of course, that is just my opinion. One of my very good friends is an artist. She is also one of the most tormented souls I have ever known.

Back to JL,

quote:

---

However, what kind of love are you asking for TS?

---

I want to love him the same way he loves me. I want to feel passion for him. I want to share a deep connection with him. I want to be glad to see him when I go home at night. I want to look forward to doing things with him. I want to look forward to doing nothing with him. I want to look forward to being alone with him. Right now I look forward to just being alone - without him.

Is that too much to ask?

posted June 18, 2000 09:43 PM            

You have a very good discussion going here!

I did not have a good marriage model at home either. My mom and step-father's was so bad, that nothing I've even seen here on MB comes close. My h had a little better, but I know his pops and they are in the "we don't love each other but stayed anyway" school. The very thing you seem most afraid of.

As K and JL have said, though, you will never know until you give it 100%.

My biggest goal has been to give my kids what I didn't have: a model of a really good marriage, a mom they can always come to, and an all around good start in life.

I see the same things you do, I also don't know any couples that I think have really great marriages. But for some reason, even though my h is my first relationship (so I may be missing out on the wide world out there), I look at the same facts and draw the opposite conclusion.

I believe that if we can't make "it" happen or at least go so far that we mutually agree we gave it all and it just isn't there, we won't be able to do it anywhere else either.

Let's look at where we were 6 months ago. My h was convinced intellectually that he had no future with OW, even though his feelings were all for her. He was convinced he had never been in-love with me? He had done some "acting" as you called it, rather than coming out and saying he had lost the feelings. Meanwhile he was having this affair behind my back.

We had all these same questions and asked Jennifer Harley in our weekly sessions. How can we go out and do fun things when I am carrying all this hurt alone? He felt nothing for me.

Or this one: the night he confessed to two affairs, each lasting 4 to 6 months and both during the last 18 months, I was reeling. I thought he could never cheat on me, much less this! My emotions screamed to kick him out and for good. How could he do this??

But I had been reading everything from Harley I could get my hands on (had not discovered this site yet) and was convinced punishing him would only hurt ME in the long run if I truly wanted this marriage. He was sitting in the corner with such hurt in his face (fear?). We have NEVER slept in separate beds. Do I push him out the door, or just the bedroom. It would only hurt ME in the long run, and look at him so dejected. I know this sounds crazy, but I reached out to him and made love to him. He went right to sleep and I stayed up all night, alone.

We did a lot of things that went totally against our feelings, but I wouldn't call it acting. I think acting is what he did before, in not being honest with me.

Teamwork is a big part, but only a part. We were always a very good team, and people noticed those things about us. All the more reason I was so totally in the dark about this.

As I said, there were many things that went against our feelings, but they weren't fake. But I do think I understand that concern. We got stuck in a rut after our recovery was doing well. I had stopped doing "fun" things together and wanting to keep talking about the deep pain I was in. I couldn't understand how we could get by this. He couldn't even really empathize. It was inflicted by his actions, yet I was there to bear it alone, day after day.

Jennifer was like a broken record - stick to the plan (to meet each other's needs and learn to negotiate POJA).

I couldn't understand his reluctance at the time to work on meeting my needs, I think I do now TS, from reading this thread.

Nevertheless, Jennifer convinced him he needed to go after it. It was like he was saying, "I cheated on you these last two years with one, then another (when the first didn't lead to love). Now I'm here instead of being with her, what more do you want from me?" Imagine how that made me feel!!

Weeks before this, before I knew about the EAs, I had really grappled with doing what I now would call a plan A. (Didn't know about it then). I could not believe what I saw in myself. I resisted putting forth any effort to do things for him. I had no desire, no, it was like pulling teeth.

I sat down with a journal, trying to get my mind around the fact I did not want to do even little things for him. He should change things first! But he had expressed a desire to leave that just left me in shock. I thought about my son, then 4. I love him to death, but he was the most difficult baby and toddler I had ever seen. I had learned to give love when I wasn't getting anything back. Couldn't I love my h as a son? Do things that would make him happy even if I never got anything back? Yeah, I could do that, and I did. There is nothing fake about selfless giving, though I had to argue myself into it.

We too feel that we are building something new. It's hard, and there have been a lot of bumps. But it is an experiment. We both looked at this and realized neither of us wanted to stay if we can't find that love.

It sounds like at least he is in-love with you. For us, we were both on empty.

Are you trying to commit to him for life, then start trying?? Don't. View it as an experiment, but get started, TS.

We both went into this with serious doubts, but we are falling in-love. I have just reached a place where I think it is going to work. Not only do I find it easier and easier because my feelings are so much stronger, but I think he is getting there too. Slower, but coming along.

Are you both willing to do what it takes?

Are you clear on the rules and exactly what each other's top ENs are?

Have you been working off a written plan to meet those?

It is much easier with a Harley as a coach. Best money I ever spent.

------------------
Cindy

posted June 18, 2000 10:09 PM            

However, each person is different, and Dr. H's principles will appeal to a very large majority of the population, but not all.
95% confidence interval, with 10 percent, 5% on either side, N/A, Not Applicable.

Those people struggle, and may be permanently unhappy, or have personal psychological blocks from their past. Personality has a lot to do with it. An INTP is strong willed and independent, yet adaptable. In other words, we can do it if we want to. An ESFJ requires support for feelings, and never ask me to compromise my values. In other words, if I don't feel it, I won't force it. IMHO, these two types are TOTALLY opposite, and happen to be my situation.

My point being that the core values of each person, derived from the environment around the family of origin, and the core personality, derived from genetics, will produce the wide variety of personal situations, some able to be built/rebuilt/fixed, others not.

I think everyone owes it to themselves to understand themselves first, BriggsMeyers is a wonderful starting point. Very well researched with good examples. Then everyone needs to objectively evaluate their values from their family of origin. Did they instill independence or dependence? Was there a good parental model, or a dysfunctional model? What are the basic underlying attitudes from the family of origin?

What does this all tell us? Who we are, what are tendencies are, and what we are fighting without realizing it.

Family of Origin Example: I come from a traditional household, F was breadwinner, M was caretaker. Republican capitalist middle class. My W comes from a non traditional household, F was the caretaker, and M wore the pants of the family. Liberal, bleeding heart, lower class.

These two families of origin collide head on in our Marriage, and have been the source of a great deal of tension as far as expectations go.

Personality Types:

I am an INTP, logical and unemotional, curious and driven to increase their competence; casual adaptive, non conforming and unpredictable. Most important is privacy and solving complex problems. (there is no grey areas in the answers and ALL the traits are accurate and exist.)

My W is an ESFJ, outgoing, affectionate, concerned about others and careful to be polite and cooperative. Highly sensitive and easily hurt, Repect my opinions and need for order and control. Never ask me to compromise my values, try not to disrupt routines or create too much change or chaos. Generally avoid even healthy conflict and confrontation. Most important is relationships and helping people.

Now where are there any similarities between the two? These two collide head on at every turn.

My point again, Harley can't fix everything, and if we don't understand who we are, where we came from, and what makes each of us tick, we can't begin to unlock the answers to these questions. And understanding ourselves is 95% of the solution.

thl

JL and Karenna, you two are tied for the best thinkers here.

posted June 18, 2000 10:34 PM            

From your description, my h has the same personality you do, and I am like your wife.

But most couples we know are practically opposites. Your point is we should look for someone like ourselves?

Maybe the differences present the greatest challenges, but also the greatest reward for the brave who can master them. My h and I have learned so much from each other precisely because we are so different.

posted June 18, 2000 10:38 PM            

My W's value system is attracted to outdoor careers, struggling lower class people. These people are real, and without them, we would not have a functional society. (I have been told this directly)

My value system is attracted to intelligent, successful middle/senior management people, with success that brings greater personal choices and freedom. ( I have been told I am no longer real.)

I had the characteristics of my W's EA OP when I got married 15 years ago this July. I am not any more. I have moved into the red area of my wife's value system.

I could have given up my own goals and dreams for my wife, or I can chose to live with myself.

TS, JL and DS, I can accurately describe my situation because I drive to work 45 minutes each way, and think about who I am and what my situation is for 1 1/2 hours each day. I have read 15-20 books about psychology to figure out who I am and what I am up against.

It requires alot of thought, and also the ability to step back and carefully reflect on who are. Remember, you are three persons, 1) who you are, 2) who you think you are, and 3) who other people see you as.

This is the struggle each of us has to come to grips with, what is right for our situations, and if our situations are not as we want them, how we remain true to ourselves in this very challenging, growth period.

Don't despair, but also realize you may never know until you've tried it. Only then will you REALLY know, but because this involves OP, namely our spouses and possibly our children, the choice carries great consequences if we are wrong

thl

posted June 18, 2000 10:45 PM            

No, my point is I KNOW who I am, and I KNOW who my W is. Without this knowledge, I could not answer what is the best path for me.

Your path is different, although there may be similarities to mine. But to know WHO YOU ARE makes certain that the path you choose is right for you, or the path that is forced upon you by others doesn't destroy WHO YOU ARE.

If you are open to learning, don't have insurmountable issues of self esteem, control, mental illness, then the opposites have the maximum potential for growth (credit to Karenna). However, the answers are not pat, and they can be complex. They are within your grasp, but it requires substantial work, and some will have it, and others won't.

posted June 19, 2000 07:11 AM            

quote:

---

I had learned to give love when I wasn't getting anything back. Couldn't I love my h as a son? Do things that would make him happy even if I never got anything back? Yeah, I could do that, and I did. There is nothing fake about selfless giving, though I had to argue myself into it.

---

This is a little different. You didn't want to give because you weren't getting back and that hurt. You were protecting yourself from being hurt. You still felt love toward him even if giving it was difficult because you didn't want to get hurt.

In my case, I don't feel the love. I don't have it to give. It's not a fear of getting hurt. It's a fear of getting stuck.

WIFTT,

quote:

---

I realized 11 years ago I married the wrong person, it continues to haunt me during the difficult periods.
I hate quitters, and D was never an option until this year.

---

Do you regret staying for those 11 years? Or do you think some good was gained from the experience? Were those 11 years worth the time and effort even though they ended badly?

quote:

---

Those people struggle, and may be permanently unhappy

---

I think that's me.

quote:

---

An INTP is strong willed and independent, yet adaptable. In other words, we can do it if we want to. An ESFJ requires support for feelings, and never ask me to compromise my values. In other words, if I don't feel it, I won't force it.

---

Hmmm. I have flip-flopped between these two attitudes. I adapt and 'become' others without realizing it. Now that I've realized it, I've done a 180. I won't adapt again (at least not if I'm aware and I think I am aware now) until I'm confident that I know what my starting point is.

quote:

---

It requires alot of thought, and also the ability to step back and carefully reflect on who are. Remember, you are three persons, 1) who you are, 2) who you think you are, and 3) who other people see you as.

---

I think you left one out. Who you want to be. Knowing the first 3 gives you a launching off point to become who you want to be. We are in a continuous state of growth and change. Once we know who we are and who we want to be, we can identify a direction of movement to help get us there. If one piece of that information is missing, we're lost. We need to know where we're coming from and where our destination is in order to figure out how to get there.

I really like the way you spoke about how knowing yourself lets you know what your path should be. Finally something that makes absolute sense to me.

posted June 19, 2000 08:39 AM            

Maybe I should just leave this alone. I poured my heart and story into my reply, but there is no real dialogue. You need to believe that the love was there so you say so, you tell me how I felt!

I think you've already made up your mind despite your claims of searching. You claim you're afraid to end up in a less than fulfilling marriage, but you can always leave tomorrow. Is that the only thing you can envision?

What about ten years from now you find yourself in yet another unhappy relationship, facing the same types of issues. Your h is happily married and you see him from another viewpoint as I did my h during the EA. Will you wonder what if...?

posted June 19, 2000 10:11 AM            

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. You talked about how difficult your child was, how much you loved him, and how you gave to him without getting anything back. You then equated that to how you decided to give to your H event hough you weren't getting anything back. The way I interpreted that was that you loved your H but was getting little in return,, making it difficult to give to him the love you felt. If this is not what you meant, then I obviously misinterpreted.

quote:

---

You claim you're afraid to end up in a less than fulfilling marriage, but you can always leave tomorrow.

---

What I'm afraid of is that I will feel comfortable enough that my sense of duty will keep me in a less than fulfilling marriage. I won't be able to leave because I will feel too guilty if I do. Not bad enough to leave, not happy either.

quote:

---

What about ten years from now...

---

Ten years from now could go either way. If I stay I could end up like WIFTT knowing that I knew there was something not right and stayed and wasted another 10 years anyway. If I leave, I could regret it, as you said. This is the fence I'm sitting on here. This is why I'm not deciding which way to go yet. This is why I'm giving it another year. I need to feel out what my marriage is going to be like, the direction it is headed in. If there is sufficient progress being made by this time next year, I will stay. If not, I hope I have the courage to leave and not stay on this fence another year and another and another....

I guess I tend to overreact a little when I feel like people are telling me to do things that are against my nature when I'm struggling to identify and hold on to some concept of who I am. When I'm trying to accept me for who I am and people tell me "No. That's not right. You're backwards. You have to be like this."

I don't have to be like anything but what I am. As soon as I'm sure who that is, that's what I'm going to do. And then I can look at who I want to be, how I want to grow. But first I need a starting point. I'm not going to start putting on more masks (which is what some of the advice here feels like to me - "just act this way and it will work"). I don't want it to work if I have to wear a mask to get there.

The good news is that I may not have to. But it will take some time for me to find that out. In the meantime, I'm trying to be realistic about how I feel.

posted June 19, 2000 10:25 AM            

It got me to where I am satisfied with who I am and who I want to be. it forced me to come to terms with who I am and what I can accept. I AM WHO I AM, TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. IF YOU CAN'T ACCEPT ME FOR WHO I AM AND WHO I WANT TO BE, THEN DON'T HASSLE ME.

What I regret is not knowing more than I did. Without this knowledge, I could not make the decisions I now know would be the best.

Why was I short on knowledge? Because between ages 13 and 23, i lived in an all male environment all year round. I gained tremendous athletic and competitive skills, I gained tremendous educational skills, both to the detriment of the social skills.

From age 23 to 30, this social ineptness kept me from really exploring enough women to find the right one, so I settled without realizing the consequences.

Was it my decision? only the last decision, but it was the result of other decisions made for me. That is life, it was what my parents valued, education, and the best education of the day. and therefore, these lessons were learned later not earlier in life. My parents encouraged education, encouraged me, but never helped me with my social development. That was not them. They figured it would come just as puberty comes to everyone.

That is why I am the product of my environment, existentially speaking, these decisions were made for me, without my understanding of how it would affect me in the future. That is why learning about the values imparted upon you by your family of origin is so important.

TS,

I am 42, I started programming computers at age 13 in 1972. Not my strength, just something that comes naturally from experience. Code is a piece of cake. Creating input screens and output reports is harder. Understanding how people interpret what they see and respond to it is much more challenging, as you have to think DIFFERENTLY than how you think. That can create the bugs as people don't interpret what you present in the same way. . . . (assuming you code correctly for the desired results.)

Now in order to code correctly and have it done so that there are no bugs, you have to be able to VISUALIZE ALL the inputs, ALL the mechanics and ALL the outputs. With that type of ability, transfering it is the key. Transferring it to analyze a relationship to come to a reasonable conclusion. I can, I can do it easily with business plans and financial plans, computer models.

It is tougher for me to see it with people, but I have forced myself to learn it so that it does not come intuitively, but with lots of thought, (in other words, my first response is not right, but after thinking about it, I get it right.)

You are in a better position to see this with
yourself and your situation than people who don't have the VISUALIZATION abilities, the imagination to think through to success and failures. So give yourself credit for that, and maybe your answer is correct, you just now need the self confidence to try it to see if it is right. Again you need to know yourself to be comfortable with the decision.

You are actually much closer to the answer than you think. You may have the answer, its just that you now lack the implementation skills or knowledge to get there.

Want an interesting book to read? not Harley type, but personal quest theme:

"If you Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him" It puts everyone's quest in terms of Dante's great works which highlight the human struggle since we evolved to the thinking animal. Our individual struggles still hasn't changed since Christ was born.

This thread is long winded, I finally understood why JL is here, and I can relate to almost everyone here as I been in ALMOST everyone's place, and after I am divorced, I will have been in everyone's place at least once. What does that give me, a profound sense of knowledge and experience to be able to impart this wisdom to my kids IF they are willing to listen and think. and to anyone else interested in learning, thinking and struggling.

thl

posted June 19, 2000 10:33 AM            

With my son, it was a natural feeling (though I did legitimately feel like throwing him out a window a few times). I would do whatever it takes.

It was not natural with my h. That's why I went through the whole reasoning process with myself - I didn't have to but I could do it, even though I had to grit my teeth.

I believe it's precisely because I wasn't getting much for so long that I felt this way, I had once been very in-love with him. He, on the other hand, may never have been (like I think you are saying).

I think what many have been saying on all these pages is that IF YOU STAY ON THE FENCE, YOU WON'T KNOW ANYMORE THAN YOU DO TODAY, even if you wait a year.

I'm not sure where the dichotomy lies. Why you feel you cannot be yourself and do a great plan A???

posted June 19, 2000 10:49 AM            

quote:

---

I think what many have been saying on all these pages is that IF YOU STAY ON THE FENCE, YOU WON'T KNOW ANYMORE THAN YOU DO TODAY, even if you wait a year.

---

INCORRECT! That assumes there is no knowledge gained from sitting on the fence.

NOT MAKING A DECISION IS A DECISION

And there can be alot learned from NOT making a decision. like your tolerance limits, your stamina, the strength of your will, your ability to learn by struggling, your ability to continue to think through what you have and what you want.

Again, it all comes back to how does one learn the best for themselves and how much are you willing to struggle to learn it. How is your struggle is similar to everyone else's and yet unique as you are unique. For many it is from doing, but it also comes from thinking and analyzing before the plan is finalized.

How do you learn the best? by doing? by avoiding? by watching others? by having it done to you beyond your control? by being a victim? by being taught and tested on it?

You have to figure this question out also.

My answer is by doing, and then I know for certain and I know have the wisdom and the experience.

thl