posted June 14, 2000 03:59 PM            

I asked under general questions if other betrayers came from households witha happy marriage or not. It seems that a large number of people either came from a household where there was a lot of unhappiness or their spouses did.

At one of the dances I went to there was an older couple ther. They had been married for 45 years and dancing together all that time. they said that they were more in love with each other than they ever have been. I wish I had spent more time talking to them. I want to know their secret.

posted June 15, 2000 08:49 AM            

My W is moody, and she withdraws when things bother her- I never know why, always wondering if I'm the cause, etc. Then, after a day or two of silence, I get her to talk and she opens up about what at work, etc. is bothering her (she's an insecure perfectionist who need constant stroking and reassurance- I know that around home, but business colleagues never do, so....sigh).

That's just her, and I promised to love the whole package. Our daughters recognize the same thing (and even share some of the characteristics), and come to me and ask about Mom, or check it out themselves. It's work sometimes, just like living with me could even be work, sunny sweetie that I am, but that's what happens when two different humans decide to share a small space.

posted June 15, 2000 09:05 AM            

What things in life have been the most worthwhile for all of you? Did they fall in your lap just at the right time with no effort, no strings, just like "gifts?"

Probably not - I would say the MOST worthwhile thing in my life is my son. AND BOY IS HE A LOT OF WORK!! But so worth it - and it's like when you try, really TRY to be a good parent and you get on their level and you talk and teach and even learn, well.... IT'S FUN!!!!

So, shouldn't marriage be like that? Shouldn't it be a continuous journey with ups and downs and pains and joys but through it all it gets better and better becasue you actually ENJOY working at it?

I'm not expecting euphoria - I want the ups and downs, I want the annoyances and aggravation, I want the good qualities and the faults. I'd give almost anything just to have my husband back at home with us.

Once they leave, you become so much more tolerant than you ever were before. You wonder, "Why did that bother me so much? It's such a little thing in the whole scheme of things. I can take it if he doesn't communicate his feelings, I just want him to be here so I can support him when I can tell somethings wrong. So what if he doesn't want to talk about it? I have to respect his feelings." There are other forms of communication and comfort that maybe we either take for granted, or don't place enough importance on. Just the simple fact that a spouse comes home to you when they're feeling bad can mean so much. To both of you.

Just my feelings at the moment. Take what you need from it - if it helps.

Cali

posted June 15, 2000 09:44 AM            

quote:

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Were you not able to watch the marriage of anyone else, either -- grandparents, neighbors, aunts/uncles, etc?

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posted June 15, 2000 10:32 AM            

it isn't a competition.
it isn't being right all the time
it isn't making yourself feel good by putting someone else down.
it isn't giving up yourself
it isn't giving up on someone else
it isn't running away when it gets hard
it isn't staying stuck for fear of change
it isn't telling someelse what to do all the time
it isn't telling other what they should do.
it isn't trading money for things.

its about goals, priorities and choices.

posted June 15, 2000 03:08 PM            

JMV- FYI, what you are describing, "not quite bi-polar" is "cyclothymic", a mood swing syndrome that isn't so extreme that medication is always indicated. People can also just be of a natural melancholic temperament, and then have happy days when everything seems nice. It's part of being human, and we all have differing degrees of the old up and down cycle. Key is to recognize it and fight against it.

Added note- not fight the feelings- they are just there. Fight with coping mechanisms, of which the best is prayer, followed by a patient spouse.

posted June 16, 2000 03:52 AM            

"The Buddhas and the Christs are born complete. They neither seek love nor give love, because they are love itself. But we who are born again and again must discover the meaning of love, must learn to live love as the flower lives beauty."
--Henry Miller ("Insomnia")

"we are so both and oneful
night cannot be so sky
sky cannot be so sunful
i am through you so i."
--ee cummings

posted June 16, 2000 07:51 AM            

My counselor suggested obvserving the couples at my church and how they interact. The trouble with that is their public persona is probably very different from how they are together at home. I do see many of them in the context of community outreach type of activities, so maybe over time, if I observe closely enough, I'll be able to pick up on a few of the subtleties. (If they don't get weirded out by my watching them first. )

Cali,

quote:

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Did they fall in your lap just at the right time with no effort, no strings, just like "gifts?"

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Amazingly enough a lot of the good things that happened in my life FELT as though they came about like gifts. My son was a gift. He was (And still is) also hard work. My career seemed like a gift. I seemed to always be in the right place at the right time to get the right education and the right job interview. Things just always seemed to fall into place whenever I needed them to. When finances were a problem, I would all of a sudden get a check in the mail - a rebate or refund for something or other that I had forgotten about. It's like someone has always been looking out for me, making sure that I always had what I needed when I needed it.

You are right, though. None of it came without work. I got the opportunity for a free educational program when I was a single Mom and couldn't afford a thing. But I still had to go to class and learn the material. I still had to do the work. That class opened the door to my career. It got me a good job. It didn't end there, though. I had to go back to school and work hard to prove that I could do my job well in order to advance. The job I have now is the best I could ask for. And although sometimes it seems like it was all dropped in my lap, only the ingredients were dropped there. I still had the task of putting them together and making it all work.

I guess marriage is like that. First you need the right ingredients. Then it's up to both spouses to put it all together and make it work. But how do you know if you have the right ingredients? How do you know if you're not missing some?

jmv,

Thank you. You have given me a lot to consider. I'm sorry I was responsible for you losing sleep.

I have read Leo Buscaglia's book "Love" but it seemed to be very theoretical. It's stuff that makes sense but I still didn't get a picture from it. I'll try reading "Personhood". That title sounds like one that I would get something out of.

To answer your questions:

quote:

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Do you have fun with your H? If so, when and doing what? If not, how could you increase the fun in your marriage?

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Not much. It's one of our biggest problems. I would like for him to go dancing with me, but the class he signed up for was cancelled until fall, so I have to wait. We go for walks after dinner sometimes and while I wouldn't call it fun, it is mildly enjoyable.
We are trying to find some new things that neither of us has tried before to find stuff we can have fun doing together. But then it will be the activity that's fun. Not being with him that's fun.

quote:

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Do you like your H? (Not just love him--there's a difference.)

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I like him, I just don't love him. He's a good man. He's kind and loving. He's been a good father-figure to my son. There are things I DON'T like about him, like his couch-potato lifestyle, but he's working to change that. Or at least to balance out the TV watching with other more active things.

quote:

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Are you intellectually and emotionally compatible with H?

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Intellectually - mostly. He doesn't appreciate some of the scientific things I like to learn about or some of the cultural things I enjoy (like Shakespeare).

Emotionally - I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Do you mean supporintg each other and sharing how we feel? He has always been supportive of me. We have just started learning how to really share how we feel. He would always hid the negative feelings from me. I would ask what's wrong and he would say 'nothing' thinking he was doing a good thing dealing with his problem without starting an argument. He finally realized that he was shutting me out when he did that but only after being shut out for too long, I shut him out, too. This is something we're working on and making some pretty good progress with.

quote:

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Do you and H meet each other's EN's? If not, how could you work on that?

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He says that until this crisis hit, I was meeting all of his. He wasn't meeting my needs for conversation, recreational companionship, openness and honesty. He's gotten better about conversation and openness. The recreational companioinship is still lacking though.

quote:

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If you were stranded on a deserted island, and could only have your children with you plus one other person, who would you choose? Would you choose your H? I would choose mine.

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Since I'm going through withdrawal from the OM, this is probably not a good question for me to think about. My first response to this was the OM. I would be bored to death with my H stranded on a deserted island. At least my son would be fun company. But then again, there would be no TV, so he'd HAVE to do other things... No, I think I'd still be bored.

I love those quotes. Thank you.

(I forgot to answer the emotionally compatible part of one your questions in my original reply)

posted June 16, 2000 08:03 AM            

quote:

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We are trying to find some new things that neither of us has tried before to find stuff we can have fun doing together. But then it will be the activity that's fun. Not being with him that's fun.

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If I were your doctor, I'd cut open your head, and take your brain out and pop in back in place "turned around". You almost always have this behavioral logic backwards.

If you're out having fun with an activity, and your husband is there---you will associate this with him, and it WILL help your love to grow.

As the converse, if your OM didn't dance, I'm sure that you'd be thoroughly unimpressed with him...

posted June 16, 2000 08:37 AM            

I've been thinking about this one and am still somewhat hard pressed to come up with much (says the woman who is probably about to embark on a lengthy ramble.....)

Where I live now, I have the absolute pleasure of being flanked on either side by 2 couples in their late 70's, early 80's who are both very much in love.

The things that I have been able to notice most significantly are the time that they spend together and the way they "are" together. There seem to be few LB's and many deposit efforts even after they have been together for 56 years and 58 years!!!! I will be over at neighbor #1 and the wife will say to me "oh B just took me to the library and found a book that I am nuts about. I have to find the time to read it around our time together though since he doesn't like it if I am not available when he wants to be together." This guy took her to the library because he knows it gives her pleasure despite what I gather is a desire for her to read a tad less, or at least to keep it in check. Through the delicate balance of give and take, they (over and over again) seem to have it just about right. A small example but I think you know what I mean.

They travel extensively together. I understand that there is great discussion beforhand relating to what they will see while away since they have very "individual" as well as "together" interests. Again, through open discussion, they meet each others opinions with respect and place the others needs and preferences at the same level of importance to their own (they do not ever seem to gain at the other's expense).

When they walk the dog together (50% of the time together) they hold hands and seem to always be talking to one another despite the fact that they spend most of 24/7 with one another. Sometimes, they sit quietly in their yard listening to music and watching the kids in the park behind their yard, tea in hand.

Couple #2 are quieter. They are more home bodies and far less active together although they too do the dog walk thing in much the same way. They tend to their garden together (yes, at 78 and 79!). He mows the lawn, she rakes, he trims the hedges, she pulls the garden weeds, etc. I do know that since her health is far better than his (he cannot sit for extended time periods), she goes once a week with a group of other older folks on drive tours in the region. Her husband helps them to plan these outings even though he is unable to participate. She takes many photos while on these outings and shares them with him. The odd time, they will plan it so that he can join them and they stop for him to walk often. They are active in their church together.

I guess what I am saying is that it would seem that these two couples live "Harley" type lives. Though I am not with them all the time, I feel confident in saying that I have seen enough and know them well enough to say that they have probably always known solid marriages.

When I first started reading the MB stuff, these two couples were the first ones to pop into my head. Maybe it is because of the generation in part? Today we all seem so wrapped up in instant this, faster that and public morals seem to be heading down the toilet in terms of disposable relationships at an alarming rate - the "me" generation fostered in part by the media et al?

I forgot to mention that both couples have kids who are also happily married - 4 kids on one side, 3 on the other. There is no divorce on either side, despite the fact that their "kids" range in age from @45 - 60 and grandkids o' plenty, some now with young families of their own.

Maybe it's a special pill left over from the 1950's?

posted June 16, 2000 09:30 AM            

That paints a pretty good picture. Similar to the couple who had been dancing together for 45 years.

What I keep coming back to is the ingredients. If you have the best recipe and follow it to a 'T', what are the chances of it ever coming out right if you don't have the basic ingredients necessary?

It seems to me that there is a deep feeling of love for one another in those relationships. K will argue with me that I'm still thinking backwards. But what motivates that couple to do things for each other? What motivates them to treat each other with kindness and respect? Why does she adjust her reading time to accomodate his wish to spend time with her? Why does he get her a book from the library that she thinks she will enjoy reading? Because they were told that it's a rule? I don't think so. I think it's because they have the underlying love for each other to begin with.

LB's can destroy a marriage. They can destroy the love that two people have for each other. Often, though, I will hear people say "I love him/her, I just couldn't live like that anymore". The love didn't die from the LBs, but the LBs made the relationship painful enough that they could not continue.

I dance with many different men when I go out. Have I fallen in love with all of them because we share an enjoyable activity? NO! Only one. I work with many different men who share my interest in computers. Have I fallen in love with any of them? NO!

I'm sorry, K. I still don't agree with you that I'm thinking backwards. Being nice to someone won't make them love you. It might open their minds and their hearts to the possibility. They may decide to explore that possibility and give it a shot. And it's possible that over time love will grow. But how much time, K? When do you decide that enough time has passed and the love just isn't there. Does it take 45 years of marriage to finally get it right?

Lisa,

I have a question for you. I don't know how much you talk to those couples you mentioned, but would it be possible to find out if their marriage had ALWAYS been so loving? If they ever had long periods of time when either one or the other just didn't love the other? Why? How did they overcome it? I don't mean times when they were experiencing ordinalry conflict but still had love in their hearts for each other. I mean times when they just couldn't find any love there.