posted September 20, 2000 11:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FaithHopeLove:
Just took mine at www.personality.com

Thanks! My top score was 8 on type 7 (The Generalist), and then 6 on type 2 (The Helper), and 5 on type 8 (The Leader).

So what do i do with this knowledge now?

And Mike...when your wife made the statement of assuming you someday would D, what context was that in?

Ummm....I think it was sort of in defense of her withdrawal behavior. She was explaining her feelings, basically.

Could it have been a veiled plea for you to declare her worth and your love and committment?

Well....she says athat she always doubted our compatibility, but that my passion for her sort of overroad her objections. My love and commitment has always been a given, I don't think that is an issue with her, really.

Does she feel she is holding you back sometimes or that you comfort zones are too different? If so, could that be reframed by how your balance and compliment each other?

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posted September 20, 2000 12:04 PM            

A defining moment came during a rare fight (we don't raise our voices much) and I yelled "I have made a choice to be happy in this marriage and I intend to be. I would suggest you do the same!"

And things got better, much better. I think we really make great partners and parents in many ways because our faith, values and culture are just about identical. Therefore we managed to compliment each other rather than trying to change each other.

My mistake was not joining H enough in recreational pursuits (although I encouraged him) and pretty much sheltering myself emotionally and not challenging him to grow (a fine line from trying to change him). Still, I loved my H and loved my life.

Although I don't think these things caused his brief affair, it probably made our marriage potentially vunerable when he had a little bit of a MLC and became dissatisfied with his life in general, but neglected to let me in on the secret.

Anyway...the next defining moment as we started recovery from the affair. Right after D-day he started talking about how we were so incompatible and dredged up all the issues I thought were resolved. Actually I think they basically were, but a Wayward or probably a withdrawn spouse tends to do a little revisionist history on the marriage. I think the defining moment in our recovery came when I said "For whatever reason, we got married and because we are married, I believe God is blessing our marriage. And I believe that God has given me to you to be your help-mate and partner in life and he has given me to you to be mine. I'm not going to second guess God or his ability to bless our marriage." He looked at me and said "I think you are right."

Although he was always committed to be married, I think that discussion lead him to be increasingly committed to our marriage and the intimate relationship we have within it.

posted September 20, 2000 12:43 PM            

Well, I skipped over the statement you reference because I didn't want to go down a sidestreet. But I think that the sentiment expressed there is indicative of someone comfortably in withdrawal.

I just read the article on the three states of marriage, and it was a good refresher.

I think my W has been sort of comfortably in withdrawal for many years. To open herself up is very frightening to her, I think. I think she also fears that she could do that, and then not satisfy me, and our marriage would end. She said the other day that she feels like she caused all this by hiding her true feelings, we drifted along, and now we are at this "turning point", and that scares her.

(Uhhh....she said "mountaintop". Not to exercise a disrespectful judgement, but her analogies never really drive it home for me )

posted September 20, 2000 01:08 PM            

WHO owns my body?

I read the verse, you try reading it again. Speaking to the wives, Paul said I do not own my body *alone*, but my H *also* owns my body. Get that? It's *joint property.* Like *our* house, *our* cars, *our* kids.

And what happened to the good ol' POJA, anyway? I guess it went out of style and no one remembered to mention that to me.

I think the whole idea of the POJA is that if you do *anything*, no matter how much you want it or think you have a right to do it (or not do it), and it makes your spouse unhappy, you are gonna lose points. That's right, *you lose.*

ANYtime you do ANYthing your spouse does not like (or he/she does something you don't like) it becomes a lose/lose situation. One spouse *appears* to win (because he/she gets what he/she wants), but behind the scene, loses love points.

It's not about rights. It's about keeping the love in our marriages, right?

So Paul said I am not to deny you? I accept that. So you get sex whenever you want it, including times when it is a flat-out LB (hey, the Scriptures said you have that right!), and *low and behold* your little wifey is gonna fall right out of love with you.

On the other hand, if I get up in arms regarding *my* rights to *my* body (yadda yadda yadda), and you go without or feel rejected, you are gonna fall out of love with me!

We both lose.

However, by *definition*, the POJA creates ONLY win/win situations. If you aren't thrilled with the results, by definition, you aren't done negotiating!

Hey, the POJA really really really works. I have tried it twice with *big* *emotional* problems in my marriage. Issues that, beforehand, my H and I had been deadlocked about. Issues that we thought could not be resolved. It works. It worked *so amazingly well* with us!

Why do I keep harping on the POJA? Because I see a pattern here that is really distressing. In all these sex threads, we usually get down to critisizing each other's views on sex. The men want us to change our outlook, we women want you to change yours. There is a lot of "But if you would just do this," countered with "We would, if you would just do that..." Both sides see the other's views as wrong, and we are trying to straighten each other out. Can anyone say...disrespectful judgements??

This is where the POJA comes in. You *can* find a mutually agreeable decision where you *both* win without either of you being "changed" or "fixed."

Sorry if I bristled just a tad at the misinterpretation of 1 Corinthians 7. Okay, I was a little upset at the verse being misrepresented. But the real issue is that it *isn't necessary* to start asserting rights. Not just unnecessary, but very unadvisable too.

I have not yet heard anyone mention using the POJA to resolve sexual conflict. I would really like to hear those success stories!

posted September 20, 2000 02:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by WorthItForEternity:
This is where the POJA comes in. You *can* find a mutually agreeable decision where you *both* win without either of you being "changed" or "fixed."
<snip>
I have not yet heard anyone mention using the POJA to resolve sexual conflict. I would really like to hear those success stories!

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Hmmm...the above two thoughts were only separated by a sentence or two

Well, this is current as my bedroom door. My W and I are counseling with Steve, and tried to work out a frequency schedule. That started this thread back in the misty fog of time (yesterday). We were at loggerheads...I thought I needed something like 3-3.5 times a week, she was only able to propose two. We talked, she didn't move off her number. I backed down quickly because, after all, I'm the poor sap in love.

Our counseling homework this week is to read the POJA.

I think it is important to think about what "state" your marriage is in (withdrawal, conflict, intimacy) when you think about these issues.

Mike

posted September 20, 2000 02:44 PM            

If she reads the POJA, she should learn to negotiate supposedly. Which means if you want four times a week, she gives it in return for getting to be on top! Or something like that. Maybe you guys need to brainstorm for ideas that would make the exchange equal - you fell trees and show her how to be a "real" man instead of a desk jockey, and she in turn is so turned on by all that sweat, that 4 times a week seems..... nice.

posted September 20, 2000 03:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Harlequin99:
If she reads the POJA, she should learn to negotiate supposedly. Which means if you want four times a week, she gives it in return for getting to be on top! Or something like that.

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Well, her stance now is that she is starting to really look forward to and enjoy sex again, and she is afraid of rushing it. So if you are me, what the hell do you say to that? "Yes, dear?" Well, that is what I did. So, I'm unhappy with the frequency, but I have to hope for better days.

She says (my favorite conversational subject) that she is afraid of falling back into where she was a few years back where she "dreaded" sex.

posted September 20, 2000 03:10 PM            

Or, wonder if I shouldn't do something just to speed up the process - like take over.

Sorry Mike.

He's never listened when I shared my likes/dislikes for "moves". He keeps his eyes wide shut and seems unaware of my state of arousal unless it's REALLY cold.

She has to feel free to speak up and needs an audience that will really listen.

Maybe you should wait until she really wants something - like a porsche, ya know, then negotiate. LOL

posted September 20, 2000 03:16 PM            

I get the feeling that you two kind of skimmed over the first part of the POJA, which is actually (in my experience) the most important part. It's where you sit down together and express what you really want and why, get to the core issues involved, and your true feelings. If this part isn't done just so, you remain at an impass (I need...she won't budge...) or one has to compromise to please the other.

Although "compromise" is hailed as the key to a good relationship, it actually promotes more lose/lose situations. You want 4 times a week (be honest), she wants two. But if either of you actually got "your way" in this manner, you would both be losing.

Even though you thought you gave your wife what she wanted when you agreed to 2 times a week, you didn't. She wants 2 times a week AND a high love bank balance, a husband who is very much in love with her. When you gave in, she got ONE thing she wanted, but not the other. Every time you go without and feel deprived, she loses points.

Put the shoe on the other foot. If she were to meekly roll over and give in to you 4 times a week, even though she resented the extra two times, she would be depriving you of getting what you *really* want, which is sexual fulfillment AND a wife who adores you, because that resentment would drain your love bank.

It's easy to jump ahead of yourselves when doing the first part of the POJA. For instance, let's say your issue isn't sex. Let's say it's business travel. Your wife says "I don't want you to travel more than 2 times a month." And you say "I need to travel 4 times a month." Neither of you will budge, so you are deadlocked. End of discussion, right?

Wrong! You still haven't gotten to the core issue. What is your wife *really* objecting to? And what is it you *really* need? This may take some discussion on your part, to unlock her root feelings and what you really want.

In the above example, her core issue might be "I miss you when you are gone," or "I feel like a low priority in your life." Etc. You core issue might be "We really need the money I get from my business trips, " or "I really love to travel, see new places!"

Once you reach the core issues, all of a sudden, the situation *is* negotiable! It is a simple matter now to brainstorm thousands of possible solutions that would address both issues.

posted September 20, 2000 03:48 PM            

You said "I also want to point out that my Husband vowed to love, honor and cherish me. What happened to that?"

You are right, and have the right to an answer to the question. Unfortunately, the only one who can address it is your husband. I don't know your story, so I have no specific wisdom to offer (as though my comments were all that wise anyway....)

I guess that's the heart of the "golden rule"- that we only get off the vicious circle that is a death spiral downward if one of you chooses to be the "Plan A" giver that sets the quid-pro-quo goal on a higher plane- as in "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

posted September 20, 2000 04:13 PM            

quote:

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Thanks! My top score was 8 on type 7 (The Generalist), and then 6 on type 2 (The Helper), and 5 on type 8 (The Leader).

So what do i do with this knowledge now?

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I stayed up all hours reading and downloading the articles at www.thechangeworks.com. The caveat article was really good too.

The test on the personality.com link gave me a FIVE (Thinker) with a score of 7, with 6 on the ONE (Reformer) and 5 on the SEVEN (Generalist).

posted September 20, 2000 10:39 PM            

Arrrrggghhhhh....so what is the POJA answer to the 4/2 problem you present?

Besides, by all accounts, Steve Harley's included, my W is firmly in withdrawal. I thought a year or so ago we had come up with a creative compromise on this, with some quickies and other acts thrown in, now she doesn't want to talk about those sort of alternatives. Steve stressed that she should not go beyond her comfort level.

She heard that, believe me.

posted September 20, 2000 11:17 PM            

I have an idea.

Why don't you get a jar, put some affectionate jobs in it. backscratches (my personal fav), quickies, sit on the couch and hold hands, do nothing tonight(for W's benefit), lovemaking (for you), walk in the evening, make-out movie night(got this from Darhma and Greg). Both of you decide what you'd like to put in. Put some of each in the jar, then pick one each day at breakfast. You both agree on the items, you both agree to abide by the one picked. This may fall under POJA.

Maybe this will increase your odds

I think I might try this one myself.

Toni

[This message has been edited by SheRa (edited September 20, 2000).]

posted September 21, 2000 05:51 AM            

Well my H claims to love me, says he does, but I do not believe he is "inlove" with me. He told me last year he was not, then retracted w/the statement" I just said that to make you mad". We had a rought summer last year w/him deciding he wasn't sure about marriage and the lot.

We are friendly now and yet I doubt my own feelings sometimes. He doesn't feel he has to give me affection or attention as this fades after 14years of marriage. I feel awfully alone w/him at times. Sex is almost nil as he told me it was only physical for him. I feel as if I am the paid servent (or unpaid) and he only has to give what he wishes.

I plan A my butt off, but to no avail. There is still no affection or attention even though he does know this rates #1 on my list. His was conversation and I do my best but how do you converse w/some one who just goes "Uh huh". So I try to be a good listener instead.

After doing this for so long there are times I wish to give up.