posted September 19, 2000 03:47 PM            

I'm coming back to this because it stayed with me, and you do express a lot of the things that my wife says.. I guess this is the part I don't get. Where is the horrible drag on "energy"? What do you mean by "sustained effort"? I'll wager that your husband would be thrilled with 15 minutes three times a week first thing in the morning. Thrilled. If you wanted to go the whole nine yards and invest a 4th 15 minutes, he would probably lose in mind in happiness.

Why does this one hour or so time commitment on a weekly basis seem so incredibly difficult and draining for some people, specifically women, or my W, more specifically?

And I'm sure that, in this happy state, he would be more than happy to do whatever the heck you wanted him to do to make lovebank deposits...rub your back, cook dinner, talk for hours, whatever your ENs are. And I'll bet you you would see the LBs and the moodiness disappear too.

See, where I was for years was that I had good regular sex, but I didn't know where to channel my reciprocal good will efforts to my W's ENs. There were plenty, believe me, I've always doted on her, I was just pressing all the wrong buttons. So her lovebank emptied, we had a trainwreck, she burned out on sex.

Hopefully I'll get another chance. But I wish she would realize how freaking MISERABLE it is for a guy to have a monogamous relationship with a woman that doesn't make a sincere effort to meet his needs. I honestly don't think women have a clue on this.

posted September 19, 2000 04:27 PM            

Mike, you said it very well, in that without the proper understanding of the emotional needs of the self, and then communicating them to the spouse, a S can drain the LB without knowing it, because S hasn't been correctly educated by the self. This burden falls on the S for asking, the self for thinking about it and answering honestly, the EN questionaire. My STBX finally told me what she wanted, but then also told me it was too late, in that because it didn't come naturally, it just wasn't me. Ergo, the decision is that one can't learn and change.

Know thy self and communicating it is the key for each. receive it and understand it is for the other.

Now look at BonnieSept, she understands it, and gives freely to her husband, and she has a great relationship.

Listen to some of the women here who have the lightbulb effect of the effect of sex on H. Kristy Anne is one of them.

Talk with one of the LSW here, and the debate rages, it is a chicken and the egg theory. Who gives in first? However, if the W's LB is filled, and the W refuses or does not understand the need, then IMO, it is a control issue by the W, or some other issue from FOO.

I identified it as two teachings from my STBX's family of origin, 1) Men only want one thing, 2) don't do it often as they then come to expect it.

now both of these sort of put down men in relationships, or put down giving freely, ie. manipulation or control. It kind of puts down intimacy.

so again intimacy is about wanting to give without thoughts of receiving, but to show love.

BTW, i just started reading the Passionate Marriage by Snatch, and it is really good.

posted September 19, 2000 04:28 PM            

Mike,

posted September 19, 2000 04:43 PM            

quote:

---

BTW, i just started reading the Passionate Marriage by Snatch, and it is really good.

---

LOL

I had to laugh at your typeo, thanks for the laugh.

I’ve got a pretty good idea where your mind is

------------------
Scott

posted September 19, 2000 04:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
BTW, i just started reading the Passionate Marriage by Snatch, and it is really good.

---

posted September 19, 2000 04:56 PM            

Originally posted by Karenna:
Guys, you just don't have the sensitive delicate tissues to truly appreciate the yuckiness of unwanted sex. Not just frankly Painful Intercourse, but just wearisome irritating rubbing. Sex has to be a lot more than rubbing. And risky rubbing at that.

Ahh...c'mon, I expected a better reply than that out of you There are a lot of easy answers to those concerns, available in pharmacies and the choice of activities. That isn't the answer. bzzzzzt!

Are you holding out on the vasectomy as a way of keeping one foot out the door for a divorce?

I could nitpick the semantics, but, let's say yes. What's your point? If I couldn't visualize a possible scenario in which I would want another child or two, I would get cut. I can visualize several, involving a divorce or a tragedy, in which I would possibly regret having neutered myself prior to age 40.

They aren't easy to reverse, several of my friends have tried without success.

Living with a woman who is "not in love with you" and "not sure she can get it back" is a factor too.

Would your kids want you to make replacement kids with another woman?[/QUOTE]

Owwww...nasty, nasty mood today

I would never have "replacement" kids....no more than child 2 was a replacement for child one, or child 4 was a replacement for child 3.

Sometimes I regret not spending the extra money for names for them.

posted September 19, 2000 05:49 PM            

I don't think that men understand at all how gross unwanted sex can be to a woman (perhaps bcs the phrase "unwanted sex" is such an oxymoron to many men.").

Now, I am a woman who really likes sex...if time allows, I am still (after 19 years) quite happy to make love twice a day or more. My H and I started our marriage off very passionately, and it stayed that way for years. Even with that foundation though, we ended up at a point where sex was a problem. It wasn't THE problem, but rather a symptom, but nevertheless it is, I think, what broke the camel's back.

My H was never a bad H. He didn't yell, wasn't abusive, held down a respectable job, etc...thought he was doing all the right things. But, he was not meeting my ENs at all well, and wasn't listening. At the time, neither of us really had a good feel for what was wrong, but basically I'd fallen out of love with him. So, to me, sex felt awful, and I figured maybe after all this time I just didn't need or want it anymore. I quit initiating sex and did not encourage him at all, tho would not actually turn him down.

Trust me, guys...for women unwanted sex isn't pleasant. It is unpleasant physically -- and a little lubrication does not fix everything, it just makes the friction more bearable (tho I understand it does great if the will is there and only lubrication is needed). More importantly, unwanted sex is soul-killing emotionally. I felt like it was simply a case of letting him use my body; I felt like a whore. Even though I would usually end up coming, it wasn't a satisfying, happy-making orgasm. And, not being dumb, he wasn't happy either bcs he could tell I was not enthused about sex.

Luckily, afer a good deal of work, we are in a much better place now. We are back in-love with each other & sex is great again, and as frequent as we can manage. And, if one of us happens not to be in the mood (and sometimes it is him ), we are usually happy to go along for the "ride" because it makes the person we are "in-love" with happy.
I see the argument that one side has to start meeting ENs...why not start with sex? And, I think that's great if the partner can meet that need willingly and happily. But, if not, it ain't gonna work...
Sex is a pretty sensitive EN and...I don't think many of us want our spouses to feel like a whore (or a dildo, for that matter). And, if you don't care that it makes them feel used, then something is quite wrong, IMHO.

Kathi

posted September 19, 2000 06:01 PM            

Wow. This is enlightening. Depressing, but enlightening.

Maybe just depressing.

Luckily, afer a good deal of work, we are in a much better place now. We are back in-love with each other & sex is great again, and as frequent as we can manage.

posted September 19, 2000 06:43 PM            

You wanted some insight into a woman and her feelings on frequency. You have received many truthful answers from women. Many woman have tried to let you guys know what it is we need to feel loved and cherished and wanted. Harlequinn's analogy was the closest to the truth. We are not a cult, holding back the fruit for bigger favors. We are just woman, who have needs just like our spouses. You just don't understand women. And as long as you feel SF is a God given right, whenever you want it, you will never understand women.

You're listening, but not hearing.

Mike,
On the vasectomy. Does your wife want you to get one. When I told my OBYGYN, that my H had a vasectomy, she said I was a very lucky lady. I think it is a sign of your problems that you don't get it done because you want to keep your options open. I am not saying you should do it, but your reasons for not doing it are LB's.

posted September 19, 2000 06:47 PM            

Between realizing I wasn't in-love with him, serious problems at his job & feeling that his life was half-over at 42, he got very depressed. He refused to get help for depression, despite his doc's suggestion. After months of being depressed & virtually sleepless, he began to have weird thoughts. In October he went to see a counselor, who thought it was MLC stuff & encouraged him to work out his issues at work, and to talk with me (which he had not been doing). We started trying to date again, talk more, have more fun & more sex...we hadn't read Harley at that point, but basically we were trying to meet needs...at this point, I don't think either of us was in-love, but I was very hopeful...things were getting better for a while.

However, unbeknownest to me at that time, he thought he'd fallen in-love with a coworker and she'd told him he needed to get himself straightened out, and started avoiding him. So, shortly after we started talking and working on our relationship, he began to have serious withdrawal pangs from his one-sided EA with her. In six short weeks, we went from a great reconnecting date in November (complete with with all afternoon sex and lots of ILUs) to him announcing he was confused and unhappy and didn't love me and knew I didn;t love him, and by the way, he'd put a deposit down on a new place to live.

That's when it all broke apart...all the walls came down & we ended up spending a lot of time talking and finally understanding the other deeply. There were a lot of old resentments and hurts...things that one had thought were trivial, but had really hurt the other. We began to understand why we had failed to understand each other & hurt each other. We got very close again emotionally over several weeks of all this, and I think it ended up being much better than if we'd been able to patch things up the way we'd been trying. Oddly tho, despite the new closeness, he didn't want sex again yet (we ended up with an 8 week period without sex...at first bcs he didn't want it, then after we got closer bcs he didn't want to mislead me that everything was OK). However, when we did resume our sex life, it came back with a vengence...we had sex 4 times the first day, and 14 times that week. We've slowed down a bit since then...

So, there it is.

Kathi

posted September 19, 2000 06:51 PM            

quote:

---

Karenna posted:
Have any of you gotten to the chapter with
the F word in the title yet?

---

Being a naturally poor student, I must admit I started with that chapter
....now I'm trying to read it in order.

posted September 19, 2000 07:18 PM            

Did I read you right? 15 min, four times a week and you would be happy? If that is the case, no wonder you W does not want to play. It takes a whoooooole lot more attention than that for a woman to feel cherished in the sexual act. Who wouldn't feel like a convienent "hole" if 15 minutes was the usual time limit for screwing around.
Have you ever just kissed for 15 minutes? How about a sensual massage followed by no sex? Would you do that for your wife for 15 minutes, four times a week?

I highly reccommend Ellen Kriedman's "Ten Second Kiss" to all you men out there suffering from sex deprivation. Read it then give it to your wives to read. If the four or five of you who post here are any indication of the norm, I would have to say that your problems are NOT unique. I tend to think that the need for SF is almost a Primal need for men, and destined to be unfulfilled a lot of the time. PERIOD. No matter how much you get now, or got then, there will still be times it is not enough. And the memories of the times of plenty will fade and be unable to sustain you through the drought.

Women, on the other hand are motivated to bear children as a primal need, not get screwed. That is just the means to an end. If the experience happens to be pleasant, playful and fun, then maybe a women is more likely to allow and even encourage a repeat performance. But if a repeat performance is slow in coming, no big deal, a woman savors and values the good ones, can recall every detail, and thinks that is enough for now, knowing there will be more sometime down the road when it suits both parties.

I, too, was once in the place your wives seem to be. I think ALL women have been there at sometime or another. What got me out of it? Not the demands or lack there of, of my H. He virtually gave up on all aggression for years, leaving it to me to be the instigator. I, equally fearful of rejection, rarely made overtures either. It was a cycle not easily broken. But break it I did. And not because I discovered the existance of the OW. I began making changes a year before I knew of her existance. These changes were the result of personal growth and research into relatonship improvement skills. (Including The Ten Second Kiss) Your wives may not be there yet. But it can happen with the right motivation. ie, tell her you just learned from the doctor that you only had 6 months to live. No, don't really tell her that...but what a motivator that would be it elicit a change in someone.

More later....