posted October 11, 2000 01:25 PM            

I am trying hard to find some sympathy for you, but I just can't. I think 3-4x a week might be an ideal, but for most people I talked to about this, it's 1-2 times a week. I think 3-4x a month is probably closer to the norm.

I think your wife must have some love for you if she's willing to do it more often to please you. If my H whined about it this much I'd say "Fine. If it's that important to you, go find it with someone else!" I would feel as if the only thing I was worth to him was sex and that if I didn't do it he wouldn't love me. Lots of women can provide sex. I want my H to love me for ME, for who I am, for all the good qualities about me, the positive things that I can bring into a relationship. Not just for the sex. So if that was the issue in MY marriage (Fortunately it's not) I would leave in a heartbeat. So be grateful that your wife isn't leaving, that she's willing to work on the marriage, even if counseling is making her uncomfortable.

posted October 11, 2000 01:42 PM            

I don't think a person should be "happy" with **what they can get** from their spouse.

We all have some ideas of what a good, or even decent, marriage looks like to us. To Mike, a good marriage looks like 3-4 times a week and/or his wife in counseling.

Maybe he won't get the 3-4 times a week, but telling him that he should be happy that his wife is willing to "do it" just to please him is frustrating to someone like me (and maybe Mike too?).

There comes a point where we all crack.

Mike's at his point, and I understand it.

And as far as the counseling, I was adament that David receive it... he wouldn't. He takes his little pills the doc gave him, but won't look into himself to see his part in the demise of our marriage. Instead it's like, oops, bad feeling, take a pill. I couldn't stand by to watch that anymore. So I understand Mike in that regard too.

posted October 11, 2000 01:54 PM            

Leon's right, I think this is the first post of yours that I have read that did not glow with wit. The problem hasn't changed but the tone sure has.

You know, just because someone doesn't want to take one route doesn't mean they don't want to get to the destination. You may be certain sure you know the fastest highway for this trip but maybe your wife just needs to take the country roads.

posted October 11, 2000 01:57 PM            

With all due respect, I never said Mike should just settle for what he should get. I did say it is probably not realistic to expect to get everything he wants at this time .

My guess is that if they keep working at bringing the "in-love" feelings back, they'll end up hitting that 3-4 times a week (which, IMHO is a fine goal...no quarrel there).

I'm just trying to slap Mike and say:

"Mike, you are getting way tooimpatient and losing hope too easily...discounting the months where (you admitted) your Plan A was not effectively aimed, you are JUST STARTING this process!!!"

Kathi

posted October 11, 2000 02:02 PM            

quote:

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I'm just trying to slap Mike and say:
"Mike, you are getting way tooimpatient and losing hope too easily...discounting the months where (you admitted) your Plan A was not effectively aimed, you are JUST STARTING this process!!!"

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I’ve gotta a few of Kathi’s hand prints on my face. They sorta grow on you with time.

posted October 11, 2000 02:04 PM            

I only bother to slap those people who really NEED it...

posted October 11, 2000 03:08 PM            

Hi Kath,

Well, I'll start with you because you did the best job

You are confusing not wanting to talk with Steve for not wanting to work on the marriage...She told you she is willing to continue working, using the MB principles.

Yeah, she said that. But she has stopped doing all the exercises and the feedback sessions as well.

Understand that where your marriage is today is not where it could be a year from now.

That is not a particularly positive line of thought right now.

You already know she's not in love right now, so this is as relevant as the frequency for bunny rabbits.

True, and pithily put. But the context came in discussions with her about what the frequency should be. She thinks once a week is normal. It is....if you are in withdrawal (according to Steve). 3-4 times was the number for happy, healthy, in love couples (I pressed him for that estimate)

As you yourself have said, most of that time was well-intentioned, but off-target.

Again true....but that doesn't mean that it didn't drain my battery.

Actually, most of this current angst is at myself...I think these few days of LBing have put me back to square one with her, and I don't think I can find the strength to start up the mountain again. We had a good burst when she started with Steve...I was able to stay patient. Then, she breaks it off and suddenly is complacent....easy for her, she is getting all her needs met!! So, I'm angry about the counseling stopping, my patience at waiting for my needs to be addressed evaporates, she wants to negotiate it out, and I'm not sure whether I am supposed to be POJAing this or whether it is still a verboten pressure subject....AND, we are both to crabby and frazzled to POJA it anyway. So we boomerang around with "deals" that last one day because neither of us is enthusiastic about it.

To everyone else:

-- thanks for the kind words.

-- to those that suggested a different counselor -- that was never the issue. W liked Steve a lot. It is her own introversion that made this difficult.

To JL:

This is sort of reminding me of the daily body counts in Vietnam.

Well, you've captured my mood, anyway.

2. Sex once a week with a willing and loving wife will in the long run count for much more than 3-4 times a week with a stiff.

Well, to me, that is like saying rice five times a day versus filet mignon once a week. You slowly die on either diet. I have searched my soul on this issue, and I know what my needs are. Your mileage may vary.

3. I know you want the willing wife 3-4 times a week, but it seems it ain't going to happen. Why? Well you turned it down last night didn't you? Why? You didn't feel like it. Did you feel bad about it? Do you regret frustrating your W?

It is impossible for my W to express desire, so my turning down a sympathy #$%^ does not hurt my conscience.

Leon,

It sounds to me like you are living through the classic Harley concept, that the spouse trying to save the marriage is the one that gets to Intimacy last! It sounds like your W is out of Withdrawal and is at least in Conflict (discussing SF frequency, voicing her opinions on newspaper articles, etc, are all examples of Conflict), if not in Intimacy (she did initiate, didn't she??)

There is no way she has even glimpsed intimacy yet. Her whole being seems focused on doing the absolute minimum toward my needs necessary to keep the peace. When she was talking to Steve a week or so back he told mne she was still definitely in Withdrawal. As far as initiating, she did that mainly because we had agreed to a schedule, and she was alarmaqed at the change in my demeanor, I guess.

Try to take things one day at a time.

Oh, shut up

And now for my standard question: what have you been doing to focus on yourself in the last 7 months?

I've been considering buying a blow-up doll, if that is what you mean.

Have you focused any of your obviously-abundant energy on your hobbies, kids, friends, etc, or has it all been directed at "fixing" your W? I hope you can answer this for me!

Well, W says I'm hitting a Plan A home run with her FC and DM needs. Lots of projects and activities with the kids.

Short the damn NASDAQ or something . OK?

Mike's number one portfolio holding -- Lucent.

Oh well, I'll trade out of it and have a nice write-off this year

Leon, as far as your mantra about improving self, I hear it. For the first time, I can accept that this marriage may not work and not be crushed. And I'll be okay. Probably better.

I think that the enlightenment that MB gives us about the duties and responsibilities you should have in a loving relationship tends to put our unenlightened mates in a very unflattering light.

posted October 11, 2000 03:24 PM            

I'll pass on something I read somewhere else...that sometimes hitting bottom IS progress. In the sense that sometimes ya gotta get thru that before you are going to be able to go anywhere else.

I think you are at bottom right now. I wish (once again!!!) that I had a magic wand to wave. But, instead, let me just reiterate that what she is telling you only reflects where she is right now. And, your fear that she'll never be different may well reflect more of your fears than it does of her.

I'm going to guess that she's tired of all this "work" right now. Maybe give her a few days, then approach her about working on the MB stuff again...

I DO know how frustrating all this can be, and I truly hope things start to look more promising...

Kathi

Oh yeah, I forgot...
Don't worry too much that the last few days of LBing have put you back to square one. They may have, but I think it'll take a lot less this time to move back up the charts...simply bcs you have a better recent track record. Be forgiving of yourself and her...ya'll are both under big stress...

posted October 11, 2000 03:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Karenna:
I feel ignored. No comment?

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uh....I'm sorry...and you are ???....

Did you ever get Passionate Marriage?

Oh, now remember you. Mrs. Schnarch.

You a racehorse and she is a workhorse.

Pretty bad mating, huh?

still doesn't intend to leave you, but you could make great strides in driving her off if you articulate what you wrote in this vent this morning!

Well, I did. That and a lot more, about tiring of carrying the whole marital ball, and my anger about her breaking off counseling, and how I am pretty sure she was involved in the Kennedy assassination, and some other stuff I can't remember.

posted October 11, 2000 03:49 PM            

quote:

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That and a lot more, about tiring of carrying the whole marital ball,

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Yeah, I said that to my H about two weeks ago (in a session with his counselor)...

Out of curiosity, what did your W say to that?

posted October 11, 2000 03:55 PM            

I hadn't realized that she had stopped the feedback sessions, etc. I thought she was still willing to work with you on that. Did she stop before or after you blew up?

I realize my post sounded like 'be happy that she's willing to put out'. What I meant was that it was a sign of hope. That if she was willing it showed that she was putting the effort in even when she didn't feel like it. In order to please you. She was doing her best to fill your need.

And what I mean about being happy that she hasn't gotten fed up with your obsession with SF was along those lines, too. She probably thinks that's all you care about and that nothing else about her is worth being there for (self-esteem, remember?). Should you attempt to improve your marriage? If either of you is unhappy, of course. But look at the real issues and stop hiding behind SF frequency.

What Leon said about you refusing her was more about you understanding how she feels when she just doesn't feel like it. Not that you should feel bad about it, just that you should look at it from her point of view. If you don't feel like it, you don't feel like it. Most women I know don't get turned on just because someone said they need them to. They might want to be turned on, but just aren't.

posted October 11, 2000 04:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kam6318:
Out of curiosity, what did your W say to that?

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