posted October 12, 2000 09:51 AM            

In fact, just looking at this post, one would think that you didn't even LIKE her.

Now from reading many of your previous threads, I got a much different impression.

I understand that you have perceived your wife's recent actions as a setback, but I doubt if she has completely changed her personality in the last few weeks....

Which leads me to believe you are changing the way you are THINKING about the relationship and about her personally.

If you are dwelling on the challenges in your relationship, they will grow. If you are looking at your wife's personality traits negatively, you won't appreciate her finer qualities.

AND you must be sending out a bunch of mixed signals, since SF is dominanting your mind, but you are not speaking about it.

I bet your wife is wondering what is going on.

You know, a moody distant person is not fun to sleep with.

posted October 12, 2000 09:52 AM            

No, Mike I would not. I would not say ignore it at all. I would say work together and compromise on what would make BOTH of you happy, not just one. These are just numbers, you cannot judge your life and the life of other people on this scale. If this fictional couple are happy getting together once or twice a week who are we to tell them that they are not the "NORM". Normal is what is agreed upon on the individual couple. I am not in any way telling you to ignore this situation. What I am suggesting is to look beyond it. There is something more there. When you were first married did you have these problems? Or were you so in love w/each other that you couldn't keep your hands off of one another. Usually when the romantic part of marriage is failing there are other problems that have not been addressed. When things are going smoothly SF seems to follow. You said she is not in love w/you right now? Do you know why? Or has she refused to explain it?

I think these boards are full of people who "compromised" on getting their needs met and had the situation eventually explode.

Sure things explode, you can only give so much before the taker part of you rears it's ugly head. Unfortunately life is about compromise and sometimes we don't always get what we want when we want.

Allegedly, once you are both in a state of intimacy, this solves itself, according to Steve. That is what I've been holding on to, anyway.

Well building up to that state of intimacy again is going to be one of the hardest challenges in your life. I know it is not an easy thing to do. I struggle with it daily. Don't you feel a lot of people would like to be more intimate w/their spouse. Unless the conflict is uncovered, discussed and compromised to there really is no going forward. All it does it turn in a vicious little circle, more hurt, more withdrawal. It is learning to break the cycle that is important. We all have to find our own way to do that.

My point is, there may be only so far that MB can go without tackling some of the above. And if she bails on the MB couples phone counseling, what chance do you think there is that she would address the above?

As you know MB is not for everyone. Not everyone believes in the concept of it. I thought plan A was to work on yourself and not on your spouse? To rework your own ideals and goals and not to force them on the other person or to educate them?

If she is bailing on it then she is not comfortable with it. You said she refused the phone counseling but was willing to continue with the homework. Can you set up a reasonable time w/her to work on these things? Not everyone is comfortable talking to a "stranger" about their problems. She has to face these things on her own. We cannot make them see what they do, only encourage them to step forward in their own life as we step forward in ours.

Don't you think I would love to hand H a list of my "grievences" to him? What would it do me? Nothing. More withdrawal. So I just work on me to make me happy and yes there are things missing from our marriage, but as I continue on to treat him like I wish to be treated he is somewhat starting to catch on.

posted October 12, 2000 10:07 AM            

Wha? I am getting a migraine reading this board today.

posted October 12, 2000 10:07 AM            

the reason we have all jumped on you, is that you have told us ALOT about you, and very little about your W. What would help alot of people here, and you, is to get inside her head, and understand her perspectives, understand her issues, understand her so that you can provide a more balanced view, but also so that you clearly enlighten us on the whole relationship.

My STBX comes from a similarly disfunctional family, with her mom being institutionalized for a while for being crazy (very hard to get good information, shame factor), some reported alcoholism, resentment against the rich passed down through two generations, and held onto to make themselves feel better at the expense of doing something about it.

But I have gotten into the head of my wife, and I understand her problems, I just can't fix them, she has to fix it, and she refuses.

And my STBX has taken a very tough stance against my career and the value of choices, by holding onto her values as the correct ones due to the above. I have been blasted for being rich, and blasted for wanting to live in a neighborhood for my kids, even though some of people have mentioned to us that it would be great for us to move into the neighborhoods. I was blasted that only bimbo wives live in neighborhoods. (all this points to resentment issues.)

My STBX also believes, and different than me, that one should never be married just for kids, your own happiness is much more important than your kid's happiness. I dislike that view, as it abdicates responsiblity for educating your offspring on responsiblities of life, hard work, etc.

My point, we don't know enough about your wife, we know alot about you. You have a very witty style, but also a very defensive style when the board "attacks." The wit covers up some rigorous views on what life should be, some control issues, what has made you successful in business is not the same as what will make you successful at marriage.

I bet i can write a post understanding your wife, and come pretty close, but we need you to do that, so that we get a first hand report of her.

So Mike, educate us with some examples of her behavior, her thoughts, so we can understand.

thl

posted October 12, 2000 10:58 AM            

Bud, that would help me too, but she isn't from Venus, she is from Saturn, or maybe one of the moons of Jupiter, and she doesn't communicate, and I have no idea about half the stuff you ask for myself.

I'm sorry for being depressing. I'm just tired...I'm tired of fighting for my needs. I'm tired of not having them met and trying to act chipper about it. I'm tired of being the one who cares.

W is acting scared...she said this morning in a great show of teary hand-holding sincerity that she wants to do whatever I want on SF. She wants to make me happy. Every day, every other day, whenever I want.

Great. A panicked concession now that I've acted ticked off. Our old pattern. Six months of trying to get there the right way wasted.

My desire for her is dead right now anyway.I look at her now and all I hear in my head is all her "honest revelations" about how she secretly hated sex. I think for the last few years I have been in love with a fantasy, not the woman.

And as soon as I open up she'll go back to searching for the absolute minimum she can do on my needs to keep the peace.

It doesn't help that I make a slip in a post on here and find I have an privacy crisis in a bunch of messages.

A lot of people are trying to be helpful, and I appreciate that. I think I just need a break from the subject for awhile.

posted October 12, 2000 11:12 AM            

Who do you like in the NL Series???

posted October 12, 2000 11:13 AM            

You do need a break, you sound exhausted. I know that when I hit that point, a little break helped.

After you've had a little rest, do think about calling Steve again for coaching tho...

And remember, we only pester you bcs we like you, Mikey!

posted October 12, 2000 11:54 AM            

I had never replied to one of your posts before because I was never comfortable with what you were asking from your W. My sentiments have been with her.

In your last post you say...

quote:

---

I think for the last few years I have been in love with a fantasy, not the woman.

---

Was this statement out of anger? Or was it a revelation?

Personally, this statement is how your posts have left me feeling - like you were manipulating your love for the goal of achieving sex. Give it more thought.

I sense that your wife is a very loving person. She wants to meet your needs and help you. She has accepted blame for "not being normal". But this is unfair to her. In a normal healthy marriage the partners love each other for who they are and the support they give to each other.

I know you have been doing Plan A and I believe you are the Plan A expert on this board. Yet, I sense that you try soooo hard that you forget why you are Plan A'ing. Happiness is a journey Mike. It is not a destination. If you play tennis to win, you will never enjoy just playing the sport. If you do Plan A to get sex, you will never enjoy just being with your wife.

Slow down. Smell the roses. Take a close look at your wife - she is beautiful Mike, and accepting the blame for your unhappiness was a beautiful thing for her to do. She deserves your love and compassion.

Give.

posted October 12, 2000 12:11 PM            

Wha? I am getting a migraine reading this board today.

So take a break from it, you deserve it don't you think?

Sometimes I have a tough time expressing what I say, sorry about that.....

posted October 12, 2000 01:06 PM            

quote:

---

W is acting scared...she said this morning in a great show of teary hand-holding sincerity that she wants to do whatever I want on SF. She wants to make me happy. Every day, every other day, whenever I want.

---

Of course she's scared. She feels 'abnormal'. She feels like a failure. Her self-esteem has taken a nose dive. She cares about you, but feels her best isn't good enough for you.

You have said that you believe that she isn't in love with you. From your descriiption of her behavior and from reading your words, I think that you are the one who is not in love. Look at your wife, Mike. Think about her good qualities. Do you love her? Do you honestly love the person that she is? Are you willing to give up having her there beside you, supporting you, in order to have sex one more time a week? What is it that you REALLY want?

posted October 12, 2000 01:23 PM            

I started reading on this board over a year and a half ago. Why? Because I felt deep in my gut that my W didn't love me any longer. Our sex life wasn't a life it was a memory. I was definitely right behind the dog in the order of things in our house.

I felt so many things and none of them were positive. What I learned from this board was not so much about Plan A or B or the 4 rules of marriage, or even the POJA, it was that I was viewing things wrong.

Yes, there was no sex. Yes, I was behind the dog in the order of business in our house. Yes, I was simply the paycheck showing up regularly. I had not misinterpretted a single thing. But what I came to realize was that I could change these things.

I didn't have to go kick doors down, but I did have to communicate. I did have to realize that my W does not show love by showing any affection at all. She showed by doing things for me, the kids, and yeah the Da__ Dog. But I could work with this, and I could change it.

How? I changed my attitude. I decided I would simply interpret everything in the positive manner, given any choice at all. I started to communicating with W better. I would come home and hug her although she would pull away. I would pat her on the butt, kiss her, and do the things I wanted to show her that I loved her.

Guess, what? 18+ months later. I am happier, things are changing slowly and for the better. Both W and I are very private people, very self-sufficient, and frankly can function very well on our own. I have to accept that and make it a strength not a negative.

You need to reassess many things Mike. The easy way is out is the door. The hard way is to change your attitude and your approach. I think your W loves you more than you think, just doesn't show it in a way that is clear to you. I think this has become a contest of wills, not a contest for you and W as a team to win together.

Perhaps you do need to leave here and think about all of this. You do need to talk with your W, but before you do. I would like to suggest that you sit back and really evaluate what is going on in your family. Do people hate each other, do they like each other, how do they show it. And most importantly of all are you perceptive enough to see it.

I'm done, there is no more for me to say, except God Bless You and Your Family,

posted October 12, 2000 07:53 PM            

I offered before,
anytime you want to chat stocks,
let me know!

Short, Long, I do options,

whenifindthetime@yahoo.com

thl

posted October 12, 2000 08:53 PM            

I came accross a wild beast,
Along the side of the road
Face mangled beyond recognition
It ate in the frosty cold.

I paused to talk with it, and asked
"What is it that gives you such hunger?"

It peered at me through
thick-skinned eyes
"Your heart, for it is bitter,
and keeps me satisfied"

I thought about this. What beast would want my heart?

"But is it good?" I asked.
"Very good," It scowled,
growing tired
"It satisfies my hunger,
The hunger we all have for love,
for need,
for desire. "

(by carina dream...to Mike)
Mike, can you see what I am trying to say?
The beast is you, although you cannot recognize yourself through thick-skin, through the years of putting up with rejection...the beast is you, and the beast within, that craves the very basics of animal desire....as you do.

If you continue with this negative attitude, you will devour what is left of your heart, and it will be free for no one.

A thought I had yesterday when I first read your post was this:
IF you and your wife divorced, and you started dating, would you expect this kind of frequency from your dates?
Perhaps you would sit them down, and offer them a SF questionairre, just to be on the safe side, to make sure you get sex four times a week. Because, after all, this is all that matters, right? Now, God forbid that you ever experienced penile dysfunction (it affects %50 of men over 40))!!!)
and were not able to "perform"...and the tables were turned....
What would happen then?
You have given me a lot of compassionate advice, but I am just not sensing that you are giving this same compassion to your wife.
You are fed up because you feel you have "done your part"...and you YOURSELF told me NEVER to GIVE UP!
(I was still kinda holding on to those words....)

MIKE: TAKE A COLD SHOWER......and remember, intimacy first, and the rest will follow.
I pray you are not feeling tempted, as I did, DON'T open up THAT can of worms...it just makes it worse...
We have all walked down a familiar path, but the comfort you will find is not that others have been there, but that you can reach the end of the path. So keep yourself focused on getting the end result.
Don't give up Mike, and BTW.....
I really think what you did to your wife, rejecting her when SHE offered sex to you was out right DEFIANCE. If you are asking her to stretch herself out to your needs, and after attempting it, you tell her you were tired, do you think this will make things better?????

[This message has been edited by carina dream (edited October 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by carina dream (edited October 13, 2000).]