posted October 11, 2000 08:23 AM            

Last night we had another blowup about SF frequency. She starts quoting something she read in the newspaper about men being "constantly horny by nature" and "savage beasts"...I don't even know WTF she was talking about. This is the sort of garbage that is poisoning her head.

She says that she only wants S once a week, she feels that is "normal" (Harley told me 3-4 times per week is normal for married couples in love.) She is "willing", to do it more, but is concerned that she will fall back into "dreading" it. This after 7 months of Plan A. I'm on my last nerve.

I just have this huge wall of resentment and anger now. I feel like I've missed out on so much in life by having this withdrawn W with all these issues about sex and affection.

She initiated last night because she knew I was upset, and, frankly, I just wasn't into it and passed. For the first time in 15 years with this woman, my lovebank is empty.

Her breaking off counseling was a huge blow. I just don't see a way forward.

posted October 11, 2000 08:31 AM            

I am so sorry for what you are going through, I can sense the pain in your words and have felt from your recent posts the past few weeks that you are really in a bad place, you sound extremely emotionally distraught!

I have no advice for you but I just wanted to extend my support and to let you know you are in my thoughts!

Sometimes things need to get worse before they can get better, that's what people have been telling me lately anyway and I will be glad if they are right because that would mean things have to get better for me, because I have just hit bottom!

Good luck to you and please keep us updated!

posted October 11, 2000 09:26 AM            

Sorry to hear about this turn of events. I, too, don't have any solid advice for you, as I know you have been following the Harley principles to the letter.

Is it possible your wife would see a local counselor, possibly female (maybe she would be able to open up to a female counselor better) who is familiar with the Harley concepts? Although I found Steve to be helpful, I did find the telephone counselling somewhat impersonal, and would prefer to pursue the counselling with someone "live" who understands the concepts. My H felt this way, too.

Just a thought - hang in there, I truly believe you are making progress, although this set back may not seem like it.

posted October 11, 2000 09:33 AM            

quote:

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Harley told me 3-4 times per week is
normal for married couples in love.

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You already know she's not in love right now, so this is as relevant as the frequency for bunny rabbits.

quote:

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This after 7 months of Plan A.

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As you yourself have said, most of that time was well-intentioned, but off-target.

quote:

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Her breaking off counseling was a huge blow.

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You are confusing not wanting to talk with Steve for not wanting to work on the marriage...She told you she is willing to continue working, using the MB principles.

SO, keep working with Steve yourself, as a coach. Appreciate her willingness to keep working. Understand that where your marriage is today is not where it could be a year from now.

I am sorry you are feeling down...but, your allowed 5 minutes of self-pity time is up!!!

Hugs--

Kathi

posted October 11, 2000 09:43 AM            

I can understand your loss of patience, but as Kathi pointed out, she is still wanting to work on the marriage, just not interested in talking with Steve. What about her talking with Jennifer?

Hang in there buddy!

posted October 11, 2000 09:51 AM            

This is sort of reminding me of the daily body counts in Vietnam. They don't have much meaning. I will be honest with you about a few things.

1. 3-4 times a week is a target number for those doing the body count.

2. Sex once a week with a willing and loving wife will in the long run count for much more than 3-4 times a week with a stiff.

3. I know you want the willing wife 3-4 times a week, but it seems it ain't going to happen. Why? Well you turned it down last night didn't you? Why? You didn't feel like it. Did you feel bad about it? Do you regret frustrating your W?

Mike I don't pretend to know all of the dynamics going on in your marriage. Only what I read here. And frankly I adhere to the dictum that: There is no pancake so flat that it doesn't have two sides.

So my suggestion is listen to Kathi. Back off, and see if you really love your W. Does she love you. If that is the case, then the two of you need to start this dance all over and pick slower music. It seems to me you are taking turns stepping on the others toes.

Seriously, I know you are frustrated but apparently so is she. What other issues are in your marriage besides sex. It seems to me that something else is going on between you two. I know sex is the focus, but think about it.

In any event take some time cool off. Apologize for turning her down last night. You know it frustrated her if not sexually, emotionally.

Please think about what I have said.

God Bless,

JL

posted October 11, 2000 10:19 AM            

Did I miss something? Why did she break off counselling - where is the thread?

I have quoted sexual frequency statistics to my H out of articles, too. It's kind of like you realize that the two of you are at an impasse, and, wow! here's something that backs up your opinion!

She does not respect your opinion. You might go back over the POJA rules - or read Give and Take.

She's trying to prove you wrong, bud. At the same time she's feeling guilty because she wants to please you, but doesn't want to please you.

I realize your feelings are hurt, and you're feeling very low, but Mike, you have to put on your smiley face again. And be honest. If she finds it amusing that you have a different opinion about sex, does she realize that she is belittling your beliefs? Respecting someone else's opinion even if it differs from yours is part of POJA.

She seems still worried about being right - maybe she's in conflict not withdrawal - which would be a positive step, right?

posted October 11, 2000 10:20 AM            

Mike,

Did you ever get Passionate Marriage? Did you even start reading it? It is really good all the way to the end.

I echo what they said about relaxing and giving her time to process what she has taken in so far. You know that people can learn and adapt at different rates. You are a racehorse and she is a workhorse. So just let her get her own emotional work up to her limit and then she will be ready for more input from Steve or whoever.

You are passionate, emotionally dramatic and demonstrative. She isn't. She is deep and still as you described. Let her do her quiet processing of the new emotional landscape under the Plan A conditions without making her frightened of your frustrations.

She still doesn't intend to leave you, but you could make great strides in driving her off if you articulate what you wrote in this vent this morning! Get a grip. Look at the big picture. Kathi described it well. This isn't even a setback unless you insist on perceiving it as such. Just calm down and listen to your wife some more.

I have great faith in you! She will come around in her own good time.

Love,

posted October 11, 2000 10:27 AM            

You both seem to be in a "bad brain" period. Can you at least concede that how your wife feels about counseling doesn't mirror how she feels about working on the marriage?

Don't consider a permanent solution to a potentially temporary problem.

And Mike, your post is giving off "cold prickles" if you ever heard the term. Your wife is probably giving "cold prickles". It is not fun to even be around someone in your mood much less have sex with them.

posted October 11, 2000 10:58 AM            

I think that it was great that your W was willing to talk to Steve in the first place. Do you not think that she has learned some things from him that will benefit you both? If you guys get stuck down the road do you think that she’d be opposed to a couple of “get me back on track” sessions?

quote:

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I just don't see a way forward

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quote:

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I feel like I've missed out on so much in life by having this withdrawn W with all these issues about sex and affection.

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quote:

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Her breaking off counseling was a huge blow.

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quote:

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She starts quoting something she read in the newspaper about men being "constantly horny by nature" and "savage beasts"

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posted October 11, 2000 11:09 AM            

I'm sure you're hurting, now, but Kathi, JL, and Karenna all have some good comments and wishes for you. I'll chime in and second Karena's suggestion for "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch; it's one of the most intelligent books I've come across in years. Not in conflict with what the Harley's espouse, but a lot deeper in areas that are especially important to you. By all means get it, and in the meantime, a little more empathy for your wife, and repairing the emotional connection may give you some peace while you digest "Passionate Marriage". Best wishes for the future; hang in there; there's a lot of people pulling for you on this board.

Regards,

posted October 11, 2000 12:20 PM            

Things may not be going to YOUR speed but they may be going to hers. Everyone moves at a different level here, we all grow differently.

I know you are upset about the counseling thing, but if she was really that uncomfortable w/Steve it wasn't going to help her in the long run. She is still willing to go on w/the MB principals. She hasn't ditched the idea totally.

When you are compromising on things it can be what you want or she wants. It has to be something that is comfortable for both of you. NOt too easy to do cause you may feel cheated and she may feel she "HAS" to.

I know that the standard on SF is 3-4x a week, well ya know what? It don't happen in my house and I don't know how many houses it really happens in. There are many different factors that add up in to this. It would be nice in a perfect world and marriage. I know I don't live in one of those. H is tired all the time so I don't see 3 -4 times a week in our future!

Hang in there Mike, take some breathing room and really take a good look inside of yourself. There is more here than SF, there is something bugging your Wife, but I don't think she is ready to talk about it yet.

posted October 11, 2000 12:38 PM            

Excellent post! Got the important misreading by Mike in a nutshell!