posted April 20, 2001 08:44 AM            

Meanwhile, your wife is working toward a crisis. The crisis? Stay or go. Which way will it break? Well, that's in large measure going to be answered by what you do. If you stay on-target in your behavior and attitudes, unflappable in the face of her slings and arrows ... she will be hard pressed to find a good reason break away. She will make the decision to stay, but there will be a dangerous potential for her to second-guess herself and hate herself for it ... so you must convince her to get into counseling with you.

If she goes, you don't need to worry about her emotions as you continue Plan A. It's your emotions that will be on trial. Bitterness. Anger. Hurt. You will have to control them, in order to give her time to come back around. You think you've already wrestled with these emotions. But she is still with you now, however weirdly she may be behaving. If she's gone, it will be a lot worse. Prepare yourself.

Meanwhile, it might be time to do a little something nice for her, nothing overboard. Don't hand it to her personally. Just put it where she'll find it when you're not around. It's just a little experiment to see how she reacts.

posted April 20, 2001 09:15 AM            

After I told my H I needed space, he took a few weeks to move out and I felt annoyed about it. Tried not to show it because he was in such pain. And I felt guilty for feeling anxious for him to be gone, but his prescence irritated me. And I began to dislike him a bit and feel he was selfish.

I am not trying to advise you really on what to do. I am just giving you my reactions, maybe some food for thought. Your W needs to be honest with you about what she is feeling so that you can help her by being supportive even if what she wants is not what you want. That is love IMO. Talk it over with your counselor. Talk over with the other people here. But her concerns need to be addressed otherwise she will think that you are being selfish and are only concerned about your own needs, and in a way, you are.
Just IMO.

posted April 20, 2001 09:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AGoodGuy:
My point is this. I think once someone has withdrawn to the point of deciding to leave, you should not try to stop them. Until she leaves, practice your Plan A to the hilt. Your goal is to give her something good to remember you by. When she leaves (which she will, I suspect), she will have those good memories to ponder over while she is all alone (because even if she starts "dating", she'll still be alone).

I think I'm rambling, but what I'm trying to say is that the natural reaction to try keep your W from leaving is probably not all that useful. It just irritates her and makes her feel trapped. I'd give her the "letting go" speech, without any preconditions. Just make sure that when she leaves, she has good memories of the "new" impulsive.

---

I strongly agree with this, although I don't know what the "letting go" speech is. If your wife decides to leave, impulsive, let her leave and compare two realities, as opposed to a reality and a fantasy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by impulsive:
I said to her I am so sorry you don't even feel compelled to speak to me. She said I'm sneaky, I'm a back stabber, I trapped her and she never knew I was such a coniver. This hurt me deeply. She then proceeded to tell me that she has given me all that she has to give. She has nothing left. She doesn't want the marriage. I've screwed over her our whole marriage and all she's done is love me and forgive me and I just spit in her face so to speak today by not having the decency to let her go. She says it's all about me. I'm selfish. People I was not prepared for this. I didn't know what to say.

---

First off, it probably wasn't such a good idea to trigger a conversation the way you did. You invited the reaction you got. As for the rest of it, I wonder what your wife thinks "letting her go" looks like? What is it that she wants from you? So far, her only proposal seems to have been for you to move out, but I have a hard time equating running out on your family with giving your wife her freedom.

Your wife can say that you're selfish, and that this is all about you, but her words and actions indicate otherwise. When she told your son that you were going to move out (which was an despicable and manipulative act), she made it pretty clear that this is actually all about her.

The bottom line is that there really was nothing you could say. All you could do is listen and try to understand her feelings (in other words, treat it as an empathy building exercise). Because your wife was not making rational sense.

quote:

---

She is very bitter right now. She is harboring a great deal of resentment. I feel like all the positive I accomplished with Plan A over the last weeks was flushed down the toilet with the developments of today. My counseler told me to expect a great deal of resentment and bitterness from her but I never anticipated this much this soon. He said that it's important that I maintain a positive outlook and I still show her I love her through the resentment and bitterness. She really feels trapped. She is trying to decide what her next step is. I doubt very seriously if reengaging in the marriage is one of the options she is considering.

---

Well congratulations, impulsive! It looks like your wife is actually ahead of even your timetable for a change! But as your counselor warned you, this is not unexpected and it is not really a setback. I know it feels that way, but in the bigger picture, it's not.

No, re-engaging in the marriage is not something your wife is considering right now, but until one of you burns a bridge or two, the option will still be on the table for her. She needs more time.

quote:

---

Maybe my marriage was already to far gone for Plan A. I don't know what to do but, I do know that there is a very good chance she is going to leave now. I don't see this as a positive development. I see it as catastrophic. I see it as the point of no return.

---

If your marriage was already too far gone, then your wife wouldn't be experiencing all this inner turmoil.

posted April 20, 2001 10:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leanna:
I am going to say something here that I feel needs to be said but that I know some people might take issue with. In terms of the financial situation, she is your W and she has supported you and tried to love you through many hard times. What is yours is hers too. And if she is bent on this separation, forcing her to stay with financial blackmail is wrong. Remember, you want her to know that you love her and support her. I am not saying that you should leave, but I think you should make it clear to her that if she needs space and she wants to move out, then you will help her financially. If she feels backed into a corner she may well take your kids and move to another state. You perhaps should explore the possibilities of a legal separation - with some ground rules. Just a few, she will not move out of your town. The kids will alternate between you and her. You will always have access to them. You will give her a certain amount of financial assistance during the separation AND she will agree to a specified number of counseling sessions. I think this last one is important. I know if she is not ready it will not help her. But maybe, it will help her to see that while you support her, and want her to be happy and not feel trapped, you are still committed to saving your marriage. Make it clear that you are not trying to trade your financial assistance for her agreement to counselling but you are trying to fairly address both of your needs.

---

Well, I for one am not going to take issue with this. What you're describing sounds a lot like what Lee Raffel calls Controlled Separation, and the key to it is negotiation. I think it may be worth a try, especially if a counselor can be involved in establishing the terms (since such involvement could easily lead to further counseling).

posted April 20, 2001 12:08 PM            

That is the correct answer. Kind but firm.

Even though it may seem that a lack of financial resources is keeping you together right now, I still suspect that FS is a major issue holding her heart back. If you can get to a point where she sees an uptrend to prosperity, and a divorce would plunge you guys back to struggling, her head may allow her heart back into the marriage.

How are you doing there? Are you still working two jobs? How did the car situation sort itself out?

Do you have a game plan to meeting her FS needs better? I think that is the place to focus, not on unwanted hugs, buddy.

Mike

posted April 22, 2001 02:13 PM            

quote:

---

Dear Dr. Harley,
My wife of almost 30 years has filed for divorce. She is intending to move out next month, and to another state this summer. Neither of us have ever had an affair, nor have there been addictions, abuse, or financial problems.

She is hurt by my past decisions concerning where we lived (in Europe for a six year period when she wanted to be elsewhere), how I treated the children, financial issues and, in general, making decisions without considering her input. It caused her to feel unloved, unequal, unrespected and unadmired by me. Now almost 10 years later after Prozac and 30 therapy sessions she wants out of the marriage.

When I made those decisions I wasn't aware of the Policy of Joint Agreement or the effect of my decisions on her Love Bank. I thought I was doing the right thing and that she would appreciate my leadership in the family. But now I know I made terrible mistakes throughout our marriage. I've taken several marriage enrichment courses (alone since she won't go), read several self-help books, and also seen a therapist at least 8 times to see what I can do to help her and myself. She went with me once but didn't like him because he was trying to save our marriage. I'm not trying to control her, but no one she talks to seems to feel that marriages can be saved when a spouse (me) is willing to change his behavior. I am on good terms with our children and love my wife, but her spirit is shut down.

I still love her but I am beginning to wonder if it is time to stop trying, or is there some hope or method yet that I have not considered. What do you suggest I do?

C.S.

Dear C.S.,
I suggest you keep trying to reconcile right up to the day she moves out, then up to the day you are divorced, and then continue on for about two years beyond your divorce. Your wife's Love Bank is so far in the red that she probably can't even see the bottom of the well. But each time you do something to make her feel good, and avoid doing something that annoys her, your reduce the deficit. She probably hates you right now because her Love Bank balance is so negative. But eventually, you will have deposited enough love units to break even. From then on, you will be depositing into the black, and she will like you again. With more deposits, she will eventually love you, and your marriage will be restored.

Your wife is suffering from deep resentment that developed over a lifetime. She does not want to forgive you for the mistakes you made during your marriage, and she certainly can't forget. Her Taker reminds her of her lost years, when she was forced to live according to your plans and your schedule. It reminds her of the times she begged you to consider her feelings, and how you ignored her pleas. She is reminded of her overwhelming feeling of loneliness, and hopelessness that made her consider suicide on numerous occasions. How could she ever forgive a man who put her through all of that.

It's no wonder your wife wants to make her own choices from now on, and her first choice is to leave the prison. She has probably been counting the days that your children would be on their own so she could be on her own. Every effort you are now making to keep her with you will be interpreted as the same oppressive control that she endured throughout your marriage.

Your wife is now in the state of emotional withdrawal, which makes it difficult for you to deposit love units into her Love Bank. She does not want you to try to meet her emotional needs because she does not believe you will ever be able to make her happy. She thinks that as soon as she drops her defenses, you will trap her, and she will be under your control again.

For a while, she may want to regain total control of her life so that she knows what it feels like. Once she has regained control, however, she may miss what it was you did for her. After all, none of us can meet our own emotional needs, they can only be met by someone else. That's what marriage is all about. She may be willing to re-enter her relationship with you on new terms. If you can meet her needs without it costing her control of her life, you will have made a deal that will compensate her for some of the pain she has suffered. From there her generosity toward you may carry her the rest of the way to forgiveness.

Interestingly enough, a sign of her trusting you may take the form of anger and resentment. If she changes from withdrawal to the state of conflictF (which is an improvement), she will tell you how angry she is, and blame you for all of her depression. Her Taker will release its storehouse of resentment. Her shaming of you, and her disrespect will be hard for you to take, but it will give you an opportunity to hear from her Taker what she wants from you. You will have an opportunity to make a deal with her to compensate her for all of the pain she has suffered. If you can get though her attack without losing too many of her love units in your love bank, you will gain valuable information, and an opportunity from your wife to implement change.

Read "Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage" in my Basic Concepts section of the web site for more information about how states of mind effect your negotiating strategy. You should also read Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility. If you read it now, you can start applying its principles while she is still with you, and follow through on them after she has left. Pay close attention to the chapters on the Love Busters, Disrespectful Judgments and Selfish Demands, because they will get you into a ton of trouble if you persist in them while she is still around.

My article, in the articles section, entitled "Why Women Leave Men" may also be helpful to you. If possible, make a copy for your wife to read and see if she agrees with me.

The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) is the ultimate equalizer in marriage. Your wife's stated reason for leaving you is that her feelings have not been taken into account whenever you have made decisions, and she feels like the caboose on a train. All her married life she felt out of control. The Policy of Joint Agreement will change all of that for both of you, and if you try to reconcile with care and consideration for her feelings, you and your wife will have years to practice using it together.

---

posted April 23, 2001 11:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by impulsive:
Had a hard time last night. Little things like her not saying goodnight, and her coming home and just going into her room and going to sleep bothers the heck out of me. I'm starting to question my resolve a little. Is this all worth it.

---

Go ahead and question. When you tally up the price for staying the course, and the price for quitting, I think you'll find that while they're both extremely costly, the price for quitting is higher. Furthermore, the rewards offered by quitting are no more guaranteed than the rewards offered by staying.

I think the more you understand why you are doing what you are doing, the stronger your resolve will become. Right now, I think your resolve is primarily under attack by your frustration. You're chafing at the short-term unfairness of the situation (forgetting the long-term aspects), and you're having a hard time dealing with your inability to fix or control the situation. When you're not used to having no control, there is a strong temptation to relieve your frustration by taking control.

The only way you can seem to control the situation is by taking the initiative and walking out of it. What you have to realize is that such "control" is an illusion, a meaningless salve to the ego. You cannot control the situation, impulsive. You can only control yourself.

quote:

---

She seems to be in the mode where it's like well if you want to stay here you can stay but there will be minimum interaction, no affection, limited convesation, and sooner or later he will get tired of that and leave.

---

If it's a waiting game she wants, well, both of you can play. But you want to watch carefully, though, that your wife is not sinking into a real depression. That she is avoiding you is only to be expected. That she is heading for bed immediately upon coming home is not a good sign.

quote:

---

If that's her thinking it's getting more and more effective. It's not just the lack of SF, it's also conversation, affection, admiration. I'm lonely and my spirits are about to take a down turn.

---

It's good that you recognize this coming down turn, and that you don't think you can muscle your way through the emotional isolation by force of will alone. But now that you recognize what's coming, you can take steps to forestall it. You've got to find some local emotional support (not another woman, of course). You need to find someone to talk to, someone who will support you and the stand you are taking.

When my wife moved out the first time, I went to my parents and one local friend for support. That was all the support I needed, since my wife and I were still working on our relationship. When she moved out the second time, cutting off all contact with me and then filing for divorce, I recognized immediately that I needed all the help I could get. I sought and got support from as many friends as I could find, even going back to renew contact with friends I hadn't seen or spoken to in years.

posted April 23, 2001 06:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by impulsive:
Well the difficult part from my percpective is that she seems to be so miserable with her current circumstances. I know for a fact that had I had my wake up call a long time ago we would be so much happier now. I also know that if she could allow herself to give the marriage one more college try, we could and would be extremely happy. She is struggling with her own internal issues also that have nothing to do with me.

---

My wife's pain is the most difficult part for me to deal with also. But, impulsive, you don't know for a fact that your wife would have been spared this misery if your wakeup call had come earlier. As you say yourself, she has her own internal issues that have nothing to do with you. Maybe she would have had to come to this point in any case in order to work through those issues.

I made plenty of mistakes in my marriage, out of ignorance and misunderstanding. I know my depression was hard on my wife. But even when I was at my most depressed, I dragged myself out of bed when I needed to, and I fulfilled my responsibilities. I truly believe that my wife could not have had a better husband than me. We were very complementary, in ways that encouraged both of us to grow, and I was d****** good to her.

She left me anyway.

posted April 23, 2001 10:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by impulsive:
I need to reach the point where I don't care anymore. Controlled apathy. Apathy that allows me to stop responding to every little percieved slight, and yet able to come across as loving and supportive.

---