posted February 28, 2001 03:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sisyphus:
I believe it was Shaw who said "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desparation."

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It really doesn't matter, but this was Thoroeau, not Shaw.

Good luck, impulsive. I hope you are able to see some improvement soon.

posted February 28, 2001 03:24 PM            

Just wanted to mention that our main "purpose" here is to support each other through difficult times we may be having - or just getting a feel for how others interpret what may be happenning to us.

Advice can be a dangerous thing - both to give and to take. (And you know what they say about "Free Advice"!) Unless somebody has credentials to show you - AND they are VERY well acquainted with the specifics of your situation, then all "advice" you read here should be taken under advisement.

The last thing we should do here is encourage others to take drastic action - unless it's to get away from an abusive spouse or something along those lines. Check Dr. Harley's information on this site - you will generally find that calm, quiet, loving discussion and negotiation is the way to find a solution - rarely by ultimatum, and never by threat.

Just be careful folks - as bad as situations may *seem*, things can go from bad to worse if one partner decides he or she is gonna "make things happen" or "run the show".

KNOW who your sources of information are. We have to learn from the mistakes of others - we won't live long enought to make them all ourselves!

------------------
Valiant, Moderator
Marriage Builders Forum

[This message has been edited by Valiant (edited February 28, 2001).]

posted February 28, 2001 04:49 PM            

Sisyphus, so far in this thread you have:

1. Advocated that he move out, 2 weeks into Plan A, with no OP involved.

2. Tell his wife that he feels the situation is hopeless and he is "trapped in a hole that you will never dig out from, that you have pretty much concluded that she will leave you.."

And now, the above. Tell her his whole Plan A is a sham, an act, that he is faking.

I think your ignorance has crossed the line to being dangerous. You are messing with people's lives here. I hope that before anybody follows your advice they would realize where it has gotten you.

posted February 28, 2001 05:08 PM            

I am incapable of responding in kind to you.

TAFKAdcope can feel what his situation requires. I have some faith that he will not misconstrue the ideas. If you want to call staying upbeat but revealing that inside you are hurting, scared, and holding to a slender reed of hope "a sham", there's nothing I can do to stop you. I would call it a demonstration of courage, as in grace under pressure. To not reveal these things allows her to paint his attitude to her in her own mind as denial, or worse, happiness because of her discomfiture and the pending breakup of the marriage. Neither of those two helps his case at all with her, merely reinforcing her sense that she must get out.

If you feel he cannot, or should not, do something like this, then tell me
does she want to see:

ease - or effort?
denial - or cognizance?
depression - or determination?
clutching after her - or a light touch?
happiness at the situation - or torment at the now-recognized peril?

posted February 28, 2001 08:25 PM            

I want to give you a different perspective if I can. I am a wife who has been in withdrawal from her husband. I withdrew from my husband because he had an affair, and I know that is different from your situation. But what happens after withdrawal will be pretty much the same.

For most women, withdrawal happens over a long period of time or for a VERY drastic reason (like the discovery of an affair). When the connection of intimacy is broken, it takes a long time to reestablish it. It also takes a lot of trust. The comments from your wife seem to illustrate that she WANTS to believe the changes she sees in you are real and permanent, but she is not convinced of it yet.

Your impatience and impulsiveness are very damaging to her. They serve as little undermining episodes that lead her to suspect that the changes are really an act, and that the act is about to end. You have to give her the time to trust you and see for herself that you really ARE different now.

Mike explained it well. Relationships go from intimacy to conflict to withdrawal. To get from withdrawal back to intimacy your wife will need to deal with the conflict again. That includes the feelings of uncertainly that she is sharing with you. Give her more time with no pressure from you. Reassure her that you are in this for the duration, that you are committed to becoming a better person and that you want her to be there to share the new life you are working to create. But don't try to force it.

When she is ready to approach you on a more intimate level, respond in kind. Let her know each step of the way that you love her and are willing to wait until she is ready for the next step. I know that being patient is very difficult, but it is absolutely necessary if you want to save your relationship.

Your wife is afraid to let you get too close, because she is afraid of being hurt and disappointed. If you try to force her to move things along too quickly, you will find yourself facing a very firmly withdrawn woman again, and it will be much harder to overcome the next time.

You have been given a lot of advice on this thread, much of it conflicting advice. I really think the best thing for you would be the advice of Steve Harley. I can truly say that he has been instrumental in saving my marriage because he showed my husband how to deal with my withdrawal and overcome it. He can do the same for you.

Beware of ANYONE who tells you to say-this or do-this. Also, please consider this. Mike has successfully dealt with a withdrawn wife and is now in a loving restored marriage. Sisyphus is divorced, as least partly because he followed the advice he is now giving you. I think that pretty much says it all.

Please keep in mind that I am sharing things more from the other side, and I really wish I could be more helpful. I can promise you that recovering your marriage and making it so much better is well within your reach.

Best wishes,

posted March 01, 2001 08:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peppermint:
Reassure her that you are in this for the duration, that you are committed to becoming a better person and that you want her to be there to share the new life you are working to create. But don't try to force it.

Mike has successfully dealt with a withdrawn wife and is now in a loving restored marriage. Sisyphus is divorced, as least partly because he followed the advice he is now giving you.

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Peppermint, you're right about the patience and not forcing things and the reassurance, and also right that I am divorced, but wrong in that what I did was not what I am saying now may help the situation (only dcope/impulsive can gauge because he is right there -- and I think it is important that he not live up to his impulsive name, but wait and respond with a cool head to whatever requires a response).

In the withdrawal stage, she has nothing further to tell him, is through making efforts to get a point across, and simply wants out. In the conflict stage, she is desperately trying to make a point, and if she can't know that it's being heard and acknowledged and acted upon, which way do you think she's going? Intimacy or withdrawal? How can he acknowledge in person when he floods as men do when the conversation turns tough? And what are the elements that make up an acknowledgement that allows him to stay in the fight for another round?

I think the elements are:

1. I've made a mess.

2. I realize you think it's too late to clean it up.

3. I am cleaning it up.

4. I don't feel good about the mess, even though a part of cleaning up the mess is for me to feel good--so when you see me feeling good, don't misinterpret that I'm feeling good about the mess.

5. I recognize that you don't have to wait here for the mess to be cleaned up--I'm begging for that, but I know I have no right to it--your freedom is not an issue for me.

6. I would like you to neglect the matter of the state of the marriage and not dwell on it for right now, so that when you look back, things are in much better shape.

In retrospect, I was missing 5 and 6, and my 3 was weak. Of 4, the only part I had was the positive attitudinal change that could be brought on by antidepressants, and sometimes that would lead to a direct challenge to 1 and 2, rather than acknowledgement. So while 4 was pleasant, and made XW feel good, XW would also find herself having to try to reinforce 1 and 2 in my mind by withdrawing yet again, and further each time.

To put it another way, if dcope/impulsive dons the happy mask, which we all agree is a mask and all agree must be maintained; and yet we all know how fearful, etc. he is inside, where is he meeting the honesty requirement in Harley's teachings if he does not share with W that he is no longer a slave to his moods and feelings, but is now rising above them?

In my marriage, when at last the bulk of these things came out in a marital workshop, they were stunning revelations to my XW, and produced immediate goodwill. What happened to that goodwill? On our return from the opposite corner of the country, there was a delay finding a marriage counselor (the best-qualified one was out of town), and when XW spoke to another, she was turned off by that one--and then declined join me in further attempts.

In retrospect, I should have been much more hurried and aggressive; and less selective on the counseling front. I flat ran out of time.

So I agree with the people who are screaming for dcope/impulsive to get with the Harleys. Or anybody else; especially a local, credentialed, live human being who can sit eyeball-to-eyeball with the two of them.

We can share our viewpoints, our particular experiences, whether successful, or unsuccessful (with the benefit of hindsight), without making disrespectful judgments.

I'm concerned because I interpret some of the posts as saying that dcope/impulsive's attitude must meet W's openly-expressed concerns with a stonewall of happiness. I think that would be palpably dishonest, and detrimental to recovery even regardless of whether W gives it credence or not.

posted March 01, 2001 08:24 AM            

If she says sleep in the bed, you sleep in the bed. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Do not decline to sleep in the bed when she wants you to sleep in the bed (I did that one too, and it's your own form of withdrawal, and one you should not give in to). Think about how far you've come ... she was talking about getting you out of the house, and at the time I was reading it as a demand on her part.

Tell her you're not holy, you're walking in grace, which is undeserved favor. Plant the seed in her mind that she might dispense a little grace of her own.

At some point, she needs to realize that she is not caving in--rather what she will be doing is tasting the fruits of the victory she has won for both of you. That's down the road a bit, don't rush it.

This all looks very promising. But don't neglect the Harleys or the local counseling front in this campaign.

posted March 01, 2001 09:40 AM            

Good!

So we are in the bed and I'm massaging her from 9:30 to 10:30 having a very pleasant time of it all.

Good!

I just said Listen, I am the same person I have always been. I've just come to understand that I have been very neglectful to your needs and the only thing I would ever want to do is treat you the way you deserve to be treated.

Good!

She then invited me to sleep in the bed last night.

Good!

I took it as sympathy, and I kissed her on the forehead and got up and went to my couch.

<needle skips> What!??! Bad! Bad!

Look, she is opening the door to intimacy and affection. Don't slap her hand. The fact that she is doing this shows she is coming out of withdrawal a little.

What happens sometimes is that when we men are distant or strong it gets a positive reaction, we are so shocked that we blunder into still being distant because that is what was working. You probably felt great climbing onto your couch, like you had the upper hand a little. But how do you think she felt, alone in her bed? Maybe rejected?

If I were you, I would tell her that you are regretting not staying with her last night, and that you hope the invitation is open.

I'm not sure where this whole line of questioning about your 'holiness' is going, but it seems to be a concern on her part. It seems to be a part of the new you that maybe she doesn't like so much, or at least a part that is raising her suspicions or making her a little disturbed. As the spouse of a confirmed goody two shoes Sunday school teacher, I often wish I had a more fun partner. I'm not sure how you should go here...on the one hand, she may think that any change in your 'holiness" is a collapse of the whole Plan A, a peek under the mask, as it were. On the other hand, she might feel comforted that the new you will still be the fun, horny, partying guy she fell in love with.

I guess I would continue talking to her, and trying to see specifically what she likes and doesn't like about your behavior in this area.

posted March 01, 2001 10:35 AM            

What do you know of the Socratic method and have you ever tried it?

posted March 01, 2001 10:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Karenna:
What do you know of the Socratic method and have you ever tried it?

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Tell me how you describe the Socratic Method and whether you might have seen hints of it in my posts? And what does dcope/impulsive have time to work out on his own, versus needing to simply run with on the faith that it has worked (or that efforts have been damaged by its absence) before?

posted March 01, 2001 11:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike C2:
Look, she is opening the door to intimacy and affection. Don't slap her hand. The fact that she is doing this shows she is coming out of withdrawal a little.

What happens sometimes is that when we men are distant or strong it gets a positive reaction, we are so shocked that we blunder into still being distant because that is what was working. You probably felt great climbing onto your couch, like you had the upper hand a little. But how do you think she felt, alone in her bed? Maybe rejected?

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I love Mike's point here. Resisting her pull makes her feel bad. Overrunning her by being carried forward with any momentum she imparts to you is also bad. Your movements toward her are to be entirely dictated by her, with neither resistance nor presumption on your part. When she pulls, you move; when she stops pulling, you halt.

Remember, Plan A is not about having any of your needs met. Unless she wants to meet them; and then you don't reject, nor do you demand more, you simply accept what she gives (because what she is really doing is meeting her needs when this happens).

posted March 01, 2001 11:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Karenna:
Therefore, asking pointed questions is extremely effective. Even if the answer is blatantly obvious.

Can you phrase your ideas and suggestions as questions?

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I post with plenty of question marks where they are called for (I'm sure you can find 'em)--and typically don't see any answers. The problem with the Socratic method is that it may require more time than is available, and even the obvious answers may not come when emotional strain is extreme (imagine a seargeant saying: "Hear that sound? Do you think it's an incoming mortar? If it is, what do you think you should do about it?").

What would you have me do when I sense both urgency and either paralysis or pending precipitous action?

I don't think anybody has all the keys, but we can share our experience, strength and hope--with enough detail to allow the readers to see if there are parallels to their situation or not. Where there are counterpoints, I hope people will express them without calling someone names. But that's beyond my control.